Author Topic: Directly placed template weapon in CC  (Read 29256 times)

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2007, 09:18:04 PM »
Quote

Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's ....
(..)
This was a type-o.  Its user Str + bayonet damage; Which means that a Militia with a bayonet is doing a Str 6 hit on a charge (str4 +1 for bayonet +1 for charge)

It says clearly in the rules about Side Arms being usable... and that anything bigger than a SIDEARM was essentially an expensive club.

is this true?

the AG-17 has CC-3 dam11  stats

-> if you use your assault rifle without a bayonet you only do dam4 + x ?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 04:56:43 AM by Aldrien »
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Offline komplikator

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2007, 01:11:55 AM »
It says clearly in the rules about Side Arms being usable... and that anything bigger than a SIDEARM was essentially an expensive club.

Ok, but, some rules says: Assault rifles are, with the exception of the elzerach and the Yari Shogun, unwieldy in CC. Yari have bayonet and its DAM in profile is ST+6, belzerach does not and belzerach can't mount any load-out..
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2007, 04:52:14 AM »
No the Damage for the AR-17 would be 11 plus the Bayonet's bonus. The only time you use the -4CC ST of model is if you have no CC weapon. Then you are making a fist/club attack.
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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2007, 05:11:29 AM »
No the Damage for the AR-17 would be 11 plus the Bayonet's bonus. The only time you use the -4CC ST of model is if you have no CC weapon. Then you are making a fist/club attack.

AR without bayonet is not CC weapon and DAM is ST, but AR with bayonet become to CC weapon and does full DAM + bayonet DAM bonus? Correct?
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Offline komplikator

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2007, 05:14:19 AM »
AR without bayonet is not CC weapon and DAM is ST, but AR with bayonet become to CC weapon and does full DAM + bayonet DAM bonus? Correct?

If its correct, it is official faq?
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Offline Archer

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2007, 07:19:11 AM »
No the Damage for the AR-17 would be 11 plus the Bayonet's bonus. The only time you use the -4CC ST of model is if you have no CC weapon. Then you are making a fist/club attack.

Phil,  This was covered before and clarified at a Tourney- iirc, you *were* there... especially when it was pointed out that it was absurd to think a bayonet adds to SHOOTING damage.  ::)

Rifles are only meant to be clubs in CC, nothing more... unless its got a bayonet; then its a short pike.

  If I have time today, I'll go looking for the comment on this somewhere on this board.  I *know* it's come up before.

  Twice.
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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2007, 08:08:36 AM »
Quote
Rifles are only meant to be clubs in CC, nothing more... unless its got a bayonet; then its a short pike.

I figured as much.  In the stats, Belzerach Rifles have 0 in CC as opposed to -4 for the Kratach, so a user can wield it rather effectively in CC.

I guess the damage would be +6 for the sectioner bayonet and whatever strength the wielder has.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 08:24:40 AM by Iron Panda »

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2007, 08:35:52 AM »
clearly the rules are missing a CC damage stat in their profile...

this is supported by the rules, since they actually say were to add the dam bonus:

Quote from: P.141
+x to the DAM value of a rifles close combat score
   ???

imho, a rifle with CC -3/4 and a damage of ~4 (max 6+charge) is almost nothing..

a bayonet is at least as deadly as a bullet & pirces armor (well, Real Life armor) as good as a steel jacket and much better than a led pistol round (not to forget the huge wound capacity).
-> damage bonus to rifle DAM is not only fair but realistic  :o

(esp if you compare to something like a sword. may be easier to handle, but a 3+ kg AR with a bayonet should do quite some damage...)


coupled with the low CC of most troops w.o. a CC weapon, it still makes the CC rifle inefficient enough.

beside: who uses them anyway? exept DL it is relatively expensive (LI+bayonet=HI PC)
the sectioner may add +6 DAM, but at 6 PC and exept the belzarach most rifles have -3/-4 (kratach -4)

(i agree that the belzarach+sectioner will be an extremly good CC weapon, but this is the only example (?).
apart from this case, i  think dam 10-12 with ~-1 to -3 to CC (at cc~8 for normal troops) is really not too good..)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 08:41:24 AM by Aldrien »
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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2007, 09:26:19 AM »

a bayonet is at least as deadly as a bullet & pirces armor (well, Real Life armor) as good as a steel jacket and much better than a led pistol round (not to forget the huge wound capacity).
-> damage bonus to rifle DAM is not only fair but realistic  :o

  Ummm... no.  The last thing any Grunt wants to be in is a "fist" fight.  Pugil-stick training is meant to teach the basics of using the rifle in Hand To Hand prior to more formalized training.

  And even then, it is stressed that the Bayonet is to be the last resort or for when the enemy is expected to be really close.  The bayonet is *NOT* meant to suppliment the bullet.  It is meant to be used when you CAN'T shoot the guy charging you or shooting him might be a bad idea.

  THe only time you are pulling the trigger in H2H with a rifle is when and if the blade gets stuck in your target.  Army Basic Training....

Quote
(esp if you compare to something like a sword. may be easier to handle, but a 3+ kg AR with a bayonet should do quite some damage...)

  Oh sure.... a 3 Kilo rifle would do some damage- as much as a baseball bat would at best.  The M-16 or AK-47 is not my choice for such festivities.  The g3 or the M-14 might be though...

As a test aldrien, take a bat and swing it at a tree.  Then hold it like a short pike & lunge at it like you were sticking someone.  Imagine the blade at the end of it and tell me that it really does more than shooting the man would.

And by the way, modern Interceptor armor is highly reisistant to knife blades.



Quote
coupled with the low CC of most troops w.o. a CC weapon, it still makes the CC rifle inefficient enough.

 Ummm... of course it sucks in CC- a rifle is meant to shot folks, not beat them in the head with...  The Bayonet just allows it to do a little more damage if you need to do such.

Quote
beside: who uses them anyway? exept DL it is relatively expensive (LI+bayonet=HI PC)

  Pauldron Hussars.  And I have gotten troops charged by them in CC.  It was rather annoying...  And if my LI could use them, I would arm them with it.  Because I am a fluffy player... and I know a good "Bayonet charge" can wreck a battleplan.


Quote
the sectioner may add +6 DAM, but at 6 PC and exept the belzarach most rifles have -3/-4 (kratach -4)

  STR+6...  with a 0 mod makes for dmg12 (str5 + 6 + 1 charge) on the charge.  Pretty damn nice... and very brutal.

Quote
(i agree that the belzarach+sectioner will be an extremly good CC weapon, but this is the only example (?).
apart from this case, i  think dam 10-12 with ~-1 to -3 to CC (at cc~8 for normal troops) is really not too good..)

  No, its not good... but IRL, they are not good either.
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2007, 09:30:14 AM »
It was my understanding when this was decussed that the Clubing rule only applyed to weapons that had no CC modifier. Any weapon with a CC modifier was used in CC at whatever the Modifier was and Damage was as per weapon. The Damage is a combination of str and wieght of weapon. Exsample: I punch for ST dam. I pick up and swing with 2 Hands an Assult rifle common sense tells me it's not only going to do ST damage it's going to do more.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2007, 09:36:25 AM »
It was my understanding when this was decussed that the Clubing rule only applyed to weapons that had no CC modifier. Any weapon with a CC modifier was used in CC at whatever the Modifier was and Damage was as per weapon. The Damage is a combination of str and wieght of weapon. Exsample: I punch for ST dam. I pick up and swing with 2 Hands an Assult rifle common sense tells me it's not only going to do ST damage it's going to do more.


per the book, no CC stat, no use in CC.
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2007, 09:51:25 AM »
Then Lets get the offical FAQ's Team to give an answer and include it in the FAQ's This has been dragged out Far enough. I check the FAQ's and this is not covered.
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2007, 01:08:53 PM »
a bayonet is at least as deadly as a bullet & pirces armor (well, Real Life armor) as good as a steel jacket and much better than a led pistol round (not to forget the huge wound capacity).
(...)
  Ummm... no.  The last thing any Grunt wants to be in is a "fist" fight.  Pugil-stick training is meant to teach the basics of using the rifle in Hand To Hand prior to more formalized training.

  And even then, it is stressed that the Bayonet is to be the last resort or for when the enemy is expected to be really close.  The bayonet is *NOT* meant to suppliment the bullet.  It is meant to be used when you CAN'T shoot the guy charging you or shooting him might be a bad idea.
i want to disagree+clarification

of course the grunt does not WANT to use it.
of course you use it when you must.

but: the damage capacity of a heavy bladed weapon is enourmouth.
a normal 5.56 bullet will often not always kill a person instantanious. it is rather not a manstopper.

wiki on 5.56:
Quote
There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the round, especially the first-round kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmentation. This typically becomes an issue at longer ranges (over 100 meters) or when penetrating heavy clothing, but this problem is compounded in shorter-barreled weapons. The 14.5-inch barrel of the U.S. military's M4 Carbine can be particularly prone to this problem. At short ranges, the round is reported to be mostly effective, and its tendency to fragment reduces the risk of "overpenetration" when used at close range. However, if the round is moving too slowly to reliably fragment on impact, the wound size and potential to incapacitate a target is greatly reduced.

in contrast, any weapon like a sword or bayonet will transfer much more energy because of the mass.
the stab is slower, but my 3 kg rifle, if stabed at a person is very very damaging.

a similar example is a longbow arrow. very slow (compared to a bullet) but a much higher energy transfer because of the mass.

for a longbow i found a german phd-work wich gives the longbow energy with 315 to 600 J / mm^2 at the target!!
a 5.56 nato has "only" 1785 J total!

-> a arrow with 0,88 cm^2 tip does have 88 mm^2 -> (with 400 J) 35200 J  :o

also from this phd:

a arrow with 0,88 cm shaft diameter, if penetrating 26 cm (meat, or thin bone, no prob) results in a wound of ~72 cm^2

read this on bayonets:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030405072141/http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2116/bayonets.htm  (nice!)

and this

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Bayonets.html

Quote
Quote
(esp if you compare to something like a sword. may be easier to handle, but a 3+ kg AR with a bayonet should do quite some damage...)

  Oh sure.... a 3 Kilo rifle would do some damage- as much as a baseball bat would at best.  The M-16 or AK-47 is not my choice for such festivities.  The g3 or the M-14 might be though...
i donīt speak about a swing! its a stab with a 20+ cm long blade propelled by a man and a mass of 3+ kg!

oh, btw, a empty HG G3 weights 4,38 kg...

Quote
As a test aldrien, take a bat and swing it at a tree.  Then hold it like a short pike & lunge at it like you were sticking someone.  Imagine the blade at the end of it and tell me that it really does more than shooting the man would.
i do. the mass of 3000+ g compared to 5 g of a bullet is a lot.. not to forget: the bayonet will move in the wound and has sharp edges that will cut if you impale someone.

Quote
And by the way, modern Interceptor armor is highly reisistant to knife blades.
i wikied the interceptor, and well...  it is a 7.5 kg armor with plates..

i did not find a text on blade penetration for plates, but a normal kevlar vest will provide almost no protection to a arrow or blade.

since the plates are designed to stop high velocity, low mass prjectiles, i can imagine that performance against such a high energy will be not very good..

in the phd they gave penetration dephts with ~11 cm if shot at the back of a dead pig, hitting the spinal colum..  :o (of course a 5.56 would also shatter that bone, but the arrow does not fragmentate)
-> i belive that a good arrow or bayonet thrust will pirce the armor


disclaimer: i read about the damage arrows and swords to (system shock role, anyone ;)) before, hence my 1. statement.

now, because you disbelived, i googled a little. i am neither a phsics person or a weapon fanatic.


what i found make me belive that, while a AR bullet are very deadly, so are bayonets


any soldiers around? veez?







« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 01:27:40 PM by Aldrien »
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2007, 01:38:37 PM »
I dont know physics either but I am a former soldier.
1. If someone gets into range to use a bayonette on you, you failed in your job to begin with,
2. Kevlar is designed to stop a bullet but it can blunt the edge of a blade enough to keep it from penetrating.
3. A blade is a LAST DITCH weapon. Meant to give you a minimal chance of survival < 4% is better than 0%>
4. The bayonette is a supplemental weapon. To show this I would have it be Str + bayonette DAM not Str + Weapon Dam.
5. If the weapon cant be used in CC < too unwieldy, no CC score> then nothing can help it just dont let them get that close
6 The easiest way to remedy this is to give every weapon a weight. That way in CC if it doesnt have a CC stat it cant be used but if it does its very simple damage  ie interceptor smg Wt 3 Dam = Str5 (Black Beret) + Wt3 = Dam 8
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2007, 01:49:17 PM »
Then Lets get the offical FAQ's Team to give an answer and include it in the FAQ's This has been dragged out Far enough. I check the FAQ's and this is not covered.

This has been discussed (many times) and is still a point of contention for most.  The facts are that if a weapon has no CC score, then it may NOT be used in CC.  Further, if a model has no CC-rated weapon, it may only cause damage by making a successful CC roll, doing the model's ST as DM.

The AG-17 has a CC (-3)score, and will do full DM in CC.  Conversely, an AC-41 HMG has no CC score (--) and cannot be weilded in CC at all.  Barring the model having a CC weapon, it can only attack in CC by punching it's target.  Straight CC roll, ST DM.
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