Author Topic: Directly placed template weapon in CC  (Read 29767 times)

Offline komplikator

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2007, 08:01:35 AM »
Allright, so a Belzarach with bayonet can inflict 11 plus bayonet bonus, yes?

Belzerachs and scythe of semai have integrated bayonets, that figures in weapon stats I think.. (better chance to hit)
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2007, 09:12:38 AM »
Correct it cant have a loadout and the bonus is already figured in hense CC-0 no minus. :'(
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Offline Archer

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2007, 11:28:59 AM »
Correct it cant have a loadout and the bonus is already figured in hense CC-0 no minus. :'(

Which means on the charge... its dam 17 @ +1 to hit.
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2007, 11:43:03 AM »
i think that is not the case.

at p131f it says that only belzarach & Yari AR are wieldy in CC

however, special rules for yari say +6 dam due to bayonet.

this is missing with the belzarach -> dam11+charge

on what page it says again that it has an integrated bayonet (and esp. the sectioner? the bayonet alone cost 6 P surely a sectioner-less necromutant can´t cost 11 P??)?
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2007, 12:28:15 PM »
CC/Dam are already included same with Scythe of Semai.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2007, 12:48:36 PM »
i think that is not the case.

at p131f it says that only belzarach & Yari AR are wieldy in CC

however, special rules for yari say +6 dam due to bayonet.

this is missing with the belzarach -> dam11+charge

on what page it says again that it has an integrated bayonet (and esp. the sectioner? the bayonet alone cost 6 P surely a sectioner-less necromutant can´t cost 11 P??)?

I think that there is some confusion, here.  The Yari gains ST + DM in CC due to Yari, not DM + 6.

I cannot find any mention of the Belzarach (nor Kratach) having an integrated bayonet.  komplikator, where do you get your information?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2007, 01:49:06 PM »
Dave the Belzarach has always had an built in blade as does the Scythe of semai check page 481 there's a picture of the weapon and under the weapons descriptions the scythe says it has a blade but the Belzarach omitted that fact, but the blade is already figured into the weapon's stat. Dam for Yari ends up being 10 same as weapon damage.
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Offline komplikator

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2007, 02:29:03 PM »
komplikator, where do you get your information?

As wrote dragon62, check dark legion armory section, look at pics ad read descriptions...
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2007, 03:18:25 PM »
Descriptions are fluff.  Nowhere, in the weapons Section, does it make mention of the Scythe of Semai having a blade.  Both the Belzarach and the Scythe have a CC mod of 0, but that just means that in CC they do the same DM as if they were fired.  There is no SA of slashing, rending, etc., just a CC of 0.

I am not trying to come down on this.  With their CC 0, they are impressive weapons in CC - but they do not get any SA for their "blades."

One other note - the pics show blades, but, I have seen plenty of Belzarachs on Legionnaires that have no blades, and Scythes whose blades are not even close to three feet long (in scale) so the argument on that is definitely up for grabs.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2007, 03:27:48 PM »
As I stated above Dave the Blades are already figured into the weapons there's no additional bonus.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2007, 03:53:28 PM »
I misunderstood, Phil.  I thought that the debate was whether the blades added a bonus to the listed DM.  Thanks for clarifying.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2007, 03:59:39 PM »
Sorry did'nt mean to sound harsh this decussion does'nt seam to want to end.  ;)
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2007, 04:14:28 PM »
You didn't sound harsh - I was worried I might be coming across as a "friggin'-know-it-all."  No worries. ;D
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2007, 07:51:26 AM »
Descriptions are fluff.  Nowhere, in the weapons Section, does it make mention of the Scythe of Semai having a blade.  Both the Belzarach and the Scythe have a CC mod of 0, but that just means that in CC they do the same DM as if they were fired.  There is no SA of slashing, rending, etc., just a CC of 0.

I am not trying to come down on this.  With their CC 0, they are impressive weapons in CC - but they do not get any SA for their "blades."

One other note - the pics show blades, but, I have seen plenty of Belzarachs on Legionnaires that have no blades, and Scythes whose blades are not even close to three feet long (in scale) so the argument on that is definitely up for grabs.

That's likely because they are considered sturdy weapons for knocking someone upside the head with a buttstroke.

At any rate, the following is culled word for word from my file of the pre-release rules and checked against teh released book... Both match so I know there was no change in this between final testing and printing.  I may sound a bit harsh... but its because I went and did the stinkin' research when I really should not have had to.

Section 8.5, page 49 (top of page)

Unless otherwise stated in a model’s profile, models may not make Ranged Combat attacks while engaged in Close Combat. Nor can they use any special equipment that is not related to Close Combat while engaged in Close Combat. Items that require no active effort on the part of the user (such as gas masks and environmental suits) are an exception to this rule.

Section 21, page 127 under heading of Close Combat:

  "This range comes into play when a model is in Base contact with an enemy model and attempting to use an equipped weapon on that enemy model.  While Melee Weapons are best at these ranges, most other weapons suffer problems.  Sidearms are compact enough to allow a model to use it in Close Combat Range to shoot an opponent with greater Penetration and Harm, which is reflected in their bonus to hit.  ALL OTHER WEAPON TYPES, with the exception of SOME SPECIAL) are difficult to use at close combat range, with the butt of a weapon's stock being used to bludgeon an opponent, since the barrel cannot be brought to bear at an enemy that is so close."/[/i][

Further More, it mentions at the start of Section 21.3 that rifles can only be used as AdHoc clubs in Close Combat and that rifles with the exception of the Yari and theBelzarach, are unwieldly in CC.

  This alludes to the thought/belief that the damage of a rifle in CC is the model STR score + bonus for charging/extra models.   Bayonet's description (Section 21.8 on page 141 in the box marked Bayonets) says it adds + to CC Value and or + to DM of a Rifles Close combat score, which has been established as the CC modifier and model strength for to hit/damage  (IE: if you can't shoot him, you are therefore clubbing him using the model str for damage) respectively.  For Example: AC19 Volcano on a brotherhood trooper :  Cc -4, DM 4 (str of trooper)

Adding a bladed bayonet (+1CC/+1 Dam) makes the Volcano a -3CC/4+1 before any charge bonuses.

The Sectioner…yep, adds 6 points of Damage in CC… but nothing to the CC score.  The Belzarach cannot take a loadout and as mentioned, it is supposedly built in like the Yari Shogun bayonet is.  I can accept this very willingly… and would play it as such.

  Now….  <insert sarcastic acidic tone here> What part of the above says that one uses the SHOOTING DAMAGE when a bayonet is used?  Where have I missed a reference in the book?  GIVE ME A PAGE reference please.</end tone>

  If someone would read the book and see what's written (and yes, maybe it should have been clarified a bit better… but come on people- use the grey matter between your ears!!), the answer to this particular question is readily apparent and if someone had bothered to read a little bit more, this arguement would have been a non-starter.  >:(

Thank you for reading.
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2007, 08:02:30 AM »
nice and sweet, but in the faq from 2006-06-14 it says:

Unarmed attack
If no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may
make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat
weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon
damage plus any bonus's.

-PFC joe


also, in the page per page faq (new from 10/04/2004) it says:

Page 120 & 127: Ranged Weapons Used in Close Combat
Q: How can I tell if a weapon can be fired in close combat, verses being used like a club? What is the
damage if I do use it like a club?
A: If the weapon has a modifier listed under its CC category, it can be used in close combat and does
the listed amount of damage.
It is assumed you'd be using the weapon in the most effective manor,
whether by shooting it or using it as a club.
If the weapon has a dash, it cannot be used at all. The wielder would not be able to use it to
effectively attack in close combat. Models with no usable weapon and no close combat weapon may
not fight in CC.

Quote
Adding a bladed bayonet (+1CC/+1 Dam) makes the Volcano a -3CC/4+1 before any charge bonuses.
if the faq (and PFC joe) is right, you aren´t here in your rant.

-> i belive that is where the question came from..

Quote
but come on people- use the grey matter between your ears!!), the answer to this particular question is readily apparent and if someone had bothered to read a little bit more, this arguement would have been a non-starter.

if you read the faq´s you would have known where the confusion came from...

I am sorry, but this time i am going to smite you..
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 08:09:53 AM by Aldrien »
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