Author Topic: Directly placed template weapon in CC  (Read 26885 times)

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2007, 01:54:53 PM »

for a longbow i found a german phd-work wich gives the longbow energy with 315 to 600 J / mm^2 at the target!!
a 5.56 nato has "only" 1785 J total!

-> a arrow with 0,88 cm^2 tip does have 88 mm^2 -> (with 400 J) 35200 J  :o


This math is faulty, in my opinion.  Energy is measured at point of impact, not across the entire area of the flat sides of the arrowhead.  Therefore, the bullet delivers much more, as the point of the arrowhead is similar, if not much less than the bullet.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2007, 02:07:37 PM »
This is a game.  Real-world physics are sacrificed for gameplay's sake.  That said, the rules are the way that they are because someone designed them, playtested them, and presented them as a balanced way to push lead across the table and to determine whose army was getting sent back for retraining on any given Sunday.

Guys and gals, the arguments presented include the lethality of daggers at the end of barrels that are designed to deliver a projectile with enough force to incapacitate the enemy without throwing the user on it's hindquarters.  Anyone watch Mythbusters?  They proved that there is no such thing as a "manstopper."  They proved that if a slug sent its target flying on impact, the same would happen to the firer (anyone hear of a guy named Newton?).  Every action has an equal but opposite reaction.  That is the simple physics.

The point of the matter is is that any properly wielded weapon is lethal. Kevlar will stop a knife, unless that knife is fired out of a cannon.  Bulletproof vests are designed to absorb impact energy and redirect it.  Flak vests - same.  Armored suits present the projectile with more inertia than the force it delivers, dissipating energy.

AR is a combination of armor, target evasive manuevering and toughness/vulnerability.  DM is a combination of actual damage (energy) delivered, accuracy (to take advantage of vulnerability) and determination of the attacker to inflict an incapacitating injury upon it's target.  When DM meets AR, in combination with a little luck, a WD is done, or not, and the game moves on.

Thanks for allowing me this soapbox moment.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 02:09:38 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Wedge

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2007, 02:15:25 PM »
Well typed sir!

My understanding of the game mechanic is as others have already said.

If the weapon has a CC modifier (not a - ) then it does the damage equal to the normal damage of the weapon as if it has been fired.

If it does not have a CC modifier it cannot be used in CC at all.  I am unsure if the club rule was official or just a house ruling.  I would suggest that it NOT be allowed. 

The only option if the model does not have a CC weapon is to fight with his/her fists at -4 to CC and deal out damage equal to strength.

As an FAQ team member that would be my line of reasoning and also where I would place my vote.

Offline wmeredith

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2007, 02:46:52 PM »
any soldiers around? veez?
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Hello.

Aldrien Archer IS a soldier so you may want to listen to him. This is a game not a mathematical equation. The rules are there to provide a system that provides a guideline so the game is as smooth and enjoyable as possible. The real world points really are moot, the game is determined by tactics, skill, and dice. Just ask Dave McGee he rolled 15 three times in a row on a 20 sided die, I rolled 1 twice in a row. I had an entire squad of Jeagers in Valpurgius's LOS and should have wiped them but I missed the channel rolls. I should have won initiative most of the time with valpurgius's leadership. I didn't and all that added up to me losing the game. The math equations go out the window as soon as the game starts, just like battle plans as soon as the battle starts.

wmeredith.
Wise men say absolute power corrupts absolutely I am not a wise man.

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2007, 02:58:45 PM »
Thank You can we have this added to the FAQ's.
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Offline komplikator

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2007, 04:32:38 PM »
(i agree that the belzarach+sectioner will be an extremly good CC weapon, but this is the only example (?).
apart from this case, i  think dam 10-12 with ~-1 to -3 to CC (at cc~8 for normal troops) is really not too good..)

Belzerach cat`t mount any load-out, it has integrated bayonet and is no space to mount anything...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 04:40:06 PM by komplikator »
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2007, 10:00:21 PM »
(...) longbow energy with 315 to 600 J / mm^2 at the target!!
      a arrow with 0,88 cm^2 tip does have 88 mm^2 -> (with 400 J) 35200 J  :o

      a 5.56 nato has "only" 1785 J total!
This math is faulty, in my opinion.  Energy is measured at point of impact, not across the entire area of the flat sides of the arrowhead.
this math may be faulty, since it is not from the work, but mine..  ::)

however, the 0.88 cm^2 is from this scource and it defines the "front" part of the arrow,
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not the entire area of the flat sides of the arrowhead

to see the tables of energy, some arrows bolts in dead pigs (and internals) & other things: check out this:

http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=972557253&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=972557253.pdf
its the phd work about "Wundballistik bei Pfeilverletzungen" (woundballistics with/at(?) arrow-injuries)

it is german, but E0, Eī  or ∆V is international..
its a very nice study about the effects of arrows on tissue


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This is a game.  Real-world physics are sacrificed for gameplay's sake.  That said, the rules are the way that they are because someone designed them, playtested them, and presented them as a balanced way to push lead across the table and to determine whose army was getting sent back for retraining on any given Sunday.
i agree, since a grunt is incapacitated only ~60% after an AR hit..

but i canīt see any abousive potential by giving the bayonet a (imho well deserved) higher damage than 4-6 + charge)
(oh, and true, the Belzerach canīt mount the sectioner.. :))

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Anyone watch Mythbusters? They proved that there is no such thing as a "manstopper."  They proved that if a slug sent its target flying on impact, the same would happen to the firer (anyone hear of a guy named Newton?).  Every action has an equal but opposite reaction.  That is the simple physics.
when i wrote manstopper i ment to say "instant-killer" i am well aware of the physics of a canon (or rocket, or gun..).

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Kevlar will stop a knife, unless that knife is fired out of a cannon.
that is not true. just special vests do that, and that is not because of the kevlar.
Dupont sells the "KevlarŪ MTP™ Technology" wich is stab resistant.. (Multible Thread Protection)
(somehow better interwoven / composite...)

also, a prison guard vest with special stab-resistance:
http://www2.dupont.com/Kevlar/en_US/assets/downloads/H-95657--KEVLAR_CORRECTIONAL_Brochure.pdf

-> "basic" kevlar(vest) is very pulling resistent and a deforming projectile will not penetrage.
a FMJ (or armor pircing round, which, by principle, does not deform) or a knife will cut through.

==> anyway: i just want to say:

1. a bayonet stab or an arrow hit is at least as deadly as a 5.56 bullet. (i know you donīt agree, but you did not prove your position)

2. if an AR killes a grunt (A18) only 60% a bayonet with DAM 4(ST)+1(bladed)+1(charge)  -> 40 % is very weak, esp if you think about the CC -3/4

check this pics again. i rather have the (empty) gun +bayonet (CC~-3, Dam +1(bladed)) than the bowie combat knife (CC+3, DAM+2)



« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 10:08:46 PM by Aldrien »
"Donīt anticipate outcome. Await the unfolding of events. Remain in the moment."

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2007, 03:24:17 AM »
This is a game...

I just had to post this again - I wanted to make sure that I was clear when I say that real-world is not the model.  The game is not an accurate simulation.  It is a nicely playable set of rules that allow balanced forces (much like chess, where castles move) to do battle allowing players to match wits as well as luck.

If you are looking for the game to be made more accurately, you're in for a wait, my friend.  :)
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2007, 03:30:17 AM »
i know we will not have a revision..


but since bayonet rules are not clearly ruled, it would be possible to rule it like many ppl. think:

AR (or any weapon with a CC stat) do their normal damage in CC+bayonet bonus


i merly wanted to argue that 10+x is more realistic than ST+x

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but i canīt see any abousive potential by giving the bayonet a (imho well deserved) higher damage than 4-6 + charge)
"Donīt anticipate outcome. Await the unfolding of events. Remain in the moment."

Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2007, 04:36:06 AM »
You must first remember that all a bullet is, is a knife with more force behind it.
You will never convince me that a knife bayonette dagger has MORE killing potential than a 5.56 round.  And if you want to be totally accurate youd have to put a minus to RC when the bayonette is attached as it makes the gun LESS accurate.

Ill make a deal with you. When next we meet Ill bring a rifle and you can bring a knife and we can find out how close you get  ;D Thats why theres the saying "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2007, 05:45:06 AM »
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You will never convince me that a knife bayonette dagger has MORE killing potential than a 5.56 round. 

:-\

but you can not say i did not try...
(well, perhaps not more, but not much less, if at all)


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all a bullet is, is a knife with more force behind it
that is not the case. the (FMJ) bullet is much quicker, weights ~5g and does its most efficient killing damage by fragmentating. (see abough the wiki citation about the opinion about the 1. round killing potential of 5.56)

the bayonet weights ~4000 g, is much slower and creates a very big cutting wound


the last thing i can say is, research a little about the damage potential of "antique" weapons.
when i did (years ago, because RPG), i got my opinion i tried to spread here (and now my reserch for this thread reassured me..).


(oh, the PHD work i mentioned has a chapter about murder. a crossbow is a "common" murder tool here (its free to buy, unlike guns). its efficiency is 14 of 15 cases discussed .. i do belive that a bayonet stab is not less damaging...)

but, as you said:
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You will never convince me (..)


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if you want to be totally accurate youd have to put a minus to RC when the bayonette is attached as it makes the gun LESS accurate.
thats true

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Ill make a deal with you. When next we meet Ill bring a rifle and you can bring a knife and we can find out how close you get  ;D
::) ::) ::)

that is so totaly not the point...

i already wrote
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of course the grunt does not WANT to use it.
of course you use it when you must.

i make another offer to you:

i bring a rifle+bayonet and you a gun.
first i stab you, and then you can shoot me...   ;)

cuīs
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 06:10:32 AM by Aldrien »
"Donīt anticipate outcome. Await the unfolding of events. Remain in the moment."

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2007, 06:30:50 AM »
Wedge a FAQ's team member has clearly answered this. If a weapon has a CC modifier it can be used in CC and does Damage equal to normal damage. If a weapon has no modifier it can not be used in CC. So Bayonet dam would be normal weapon damage plus Bayonet bonus.
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Offline komplikator

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2007, 06:56:08 AM »
Wedge a FAQ's team member has clearly answered this. If a weapon has a CC modifier it can be used in CC and does Damage equal to normal damage. If a weapon has no modifier it can not be used in CC. So Bayonet dam would be normal weapon damage plus Bayonet bonus.

Yes I can sign under that :)


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Look at 2nd edition of Warzone. Stats in 3rd ed. is mostly same as 2nd ed. Why does not exists equivalent FAQ for 2nd edition?
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Offline wmeredith

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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2007, 07:02:35 AM »
Hello

Aldrien, I am not a soldier so I won't make  many claims. But from what I have heard the 5.56 round is desihned to incompacitate as well as kill . A dead soilder does not cause as much drian on resources as a wounded one who needs medical attention and transport .

wmeredth
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Re: Directly placed template weapon in CC
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2007, 07:45:46 AM »
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Wedge a FAQ's team member has clearly answered this. If a weapon has a CC modifier it can be used in CC and does Damage equal to normal damage. If a weapon has no modifier it can not be used in CC. So Bayonet dam would be normal weapon damage plus Bayonet bonus.


Allright, so a Belzarach with bayonet can inflict 11 plus bayonet bonus, yes?

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Belzerach cat`t mount any load-out, it has integrated bayonet and is no space to mount anything...


This is what get's me.  Belzerach's can't have load outs and can't add any bayonets.  But I've read somewhere (can't remember off the top of my head) that they have sectioners built in.  I could be wrong, but can they?