Author Topic: Medic ability  (Read 21493 times)

Offline Gallagher_Standard_Barer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
  • Karma: +17/-1
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2005, 10:15:36 AM »
Yes, a model may be healed by a medic and attempt to regenerate in the same turn.  Along the same lines the Cybertronic Survielor may use the ticker and then attmept to regenerate, making him one tough hombre to take down (Personal experiance on that one).

Offline jjdodger

  • Board Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 258
  • Karma: +16/-0
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2005, 10:25:29 AM »
if that is the case, why cant multiple medics heal multiple wounds on 1 model in 1 turn?

More specifically, why can a model heal itself, and the 1st medic put a wound back, but the 2nd cannot? Even worse, in the canse of the Surveiler, ticker puts back a wound, he regens a wound, and then a medic puts back a wound. Thats 3. Why cant a 2nd medic put back another?

I know the odds on there being that many medics together on the field are slim and none, but it could happen..
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 10:30:13 AM by jjdodger »

Offline Gallagher_Standard_Barer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
  • Karma: +17/-1
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2005, 11:17:12 AM »
I'm without my rule book at the moment so this is off the cuff, but as I recall medics can only restore a single wound to a target that has lost its last would and would be removed from the table at the end of the turn, if I'm correct then you cannot use medic on models that are still standing.

In short the medic ability confers the ability to keep someone in the fight, but just barely.  This is why Art powers like exorsize wound, or the Ki power that restores wounds are vastly superior to Medic, since you don't have to be dying to benefit from them.

Once agian, this is off the cuff.  If some one with more knowledge or access to supporting or disproving evidence from the rule book would like to chime in I would greatly appreciate it.

Offline dmcgee1

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: +147/-7
  • Ask away!
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2005, 03:09:30 PM »
A model that takes its last wound is not, necessarily, dead.  It is incapacitated and is, for all intents and purposes, out of the fight.

Medics do not "heal" a model.  Rather, they assess the extent of the wound(s) of the model.  The Medic SA represents this like so; if the Medic makes his roll, the wound is not grave enough to remove the model from the fight, and he tells the model, "Ain't so bad - now git your arse back in the fight, soldier!"  If he fails his roll, no amount of first aid will return this particular model to combat status - "Hang in 'til I can get you to the aid station, Private!" "Hang in soldier, you're gonna make it (no, he's not)" "Oops...heh, no worries.  MEDIC!"

Being a former combat medic in the US Air Force, I can attest that this is what I did as a medic.  I assessed, and, if able to get the soldier back in the fight, or stabilize him/her until he/she was able to receive better care, treated the immediate injury.  In the case of GSW's (gunshot wounds), if it was non-life-threatening, I would get the bleeding under control and apply a compressing bandage to keep blood loss at a minimum.  If there was a great chance that the soldier was going to die, I would not waste valuable medical supplies if they could be used to save another.  This is what triage is all about - doing the most good for the most patients.  The mnemonic we used was DIME - Delayed (treatment could wait, non-life-threatening), Immediate (treat now in order to save life/limb - may be downgraded to Delayed or Minimal if first-aid stabilizes patient), Minimal (put a bandage on it and go), and Expextant (expected to die, no matter what course is taken).

Examples:
Delayed - broken leg, loss of an eye, laceration with some loss of blood, loss of hearing, 2nd degree burns, etc.
Immediate - 3rd degree burns to less than 75% of body (cover and keep cool with water), blocked airway (perform tracheotomy and restore airflow), severed limb (tourniquet), sucking chest wound (tape a credit card or something similar across hole in chest leaving one of the four sides untaped to keep blood in, but allow air to escape and keep lung from collapsing), etc.
Minimal - broken finger, contusions, abrasions, 1st degree buns, etc.
Expectant - GSW to head, heart, spleen, severing of carotid artery (can't use a tourniquet here - blood loss will kill brain), 3rd degree burns to over 75% of body, etc.  This was a harsh decision, sometimes.  "Can the patient be saved?"  "Is it worth the supplies to attempt to save?"  "Have I made the right decision for the greater good?"  "I've gone off on a self-indulgent tangent - let me get back to the question."

This game simulates that by giving the medic a chance to do the above.  When the medic makes the roll, assume the wound was considered MINIMAL.  No other medic is able to do any greater good, as the wound has been assessed and dealt with.  If the roll is failed, assume the wound was assessed to be one of the other three categories.  Again, no other medic would be abe to help, as they would tend to agree with the assessment.  Having the medic in the squad allows the assessment to be made.  Without a medic, the soldier is left to their own devices.  Wounds cannot be assessed and are assumed grave enough to removed the soldier from the fight.

The Ticker is a one-use item that can only be used to return a model's last wound.  Once used, it cannot restore another wound, even if the model regenerates wounds or is "healed" afterwards.  Regeneration is a special ability of the model, itself, and is separate from the medic ability.  Powers are just that - Special Abilities that confer unnatural abilities.  In game terms, they are above and beyond the powers of ordinal mortals.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 03:36:57 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline PFC joe

  • Private First Class
  • Private First Class
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • Karma: +57/-2
  • assistance from a distance
    • PFC joe's After Action Reviews
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2005, 03:40:19 PM »
-Applaud-

couldn't have said better myself.  If the applaud/smit button was workin for me I'd give ya props.

-PFC joe
Qui desiderat pacem pręparet bellum

Offline T Prime

  • Big Kahuna, Chairman of the Board
  • Administrator
  • Member Prime
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
  • Karma: +75/-0
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2005, 02:54:37 PM »
I applauded him for you AfD.
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
Excelsior!!

Offline mchiao

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 240
  • Karma: +8/-2
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2005, 07:01:12 PM »


This game simulates that by giving the medic a chance to do the above.  When the medic makes the roll, assume the wound was considered MINIMAL.  No other medic is able to do any greater good, as the wound has been assessed and dealt with.  If the roll is failed, assume the wound was assessed to be one of the other three categories.  Again, no other medic would be abe to help, as they would tend to agree with the assessment.  Having the medic in the squad allows the assessment to be made.  Without a medic, the soldier is left to their own devices.  Wounds cannot be assessed and are assumed grave enough to removed the soldier from the fight.



If we are 'really' simulating the real life then chances are there might be a situation where the 1st medic have no clue in regarding to how to treat this wound (in game term, the medic failed the roll).  That doesn't mean another medic can not take a look at and maybe he or she knows how to deal with this would (in game term, the medic made the roll).

Plus, in real life, you always want to get a second opinion.  :-)

If I remember correctly, the 2nd edition medic rule had a clause where you can not heal more than the number of wounds a model has.  I think that mimics what dmcgee1 said. 

Looking from gaming perspective, I would like to see the medic's ability to expand a bit by allowing multiple medics treating a wounded model but no more than 1 wound can be healed by medics SA.

Any thoughts?

Offline Gallagher_Standard_Barer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
  • Karma: +17/-1
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2005, 08:59:05 AM »
Looking from gaming perspective, I would like to see the medic's ability to expand a bit by allowing multiple medics treating a wounded model but no more than 1 wound can be healed by medics SA.

Any thoughts?

In doing that you're creating additional book keeping, since you would have to keep track of whose been 'Mediced' you would really have to make some sort of 'Healed' marker you could place by the unit, and while I don't know about you I do know that between terrain, units and the markers we already have, things often get very busy and sometimes counters get misplaced.  There is nothing worse than finding out that the Behemoth should have been dead last turn but its player lost track of a wound counter.

Offline dmcgee1

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: +147/-7
  • Ask away!
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2005, 02:02:47 PM »
I applauded him for you AfD.

Thanks, bud  ;)
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3179
  • Karma: +147/-7
  • Ask away!
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2005, 02:04:39 PM »
Looking from gaming perspective, I would like to see the medic's ability to expand a bit by allowing multiple medics treating a wounded model but no more than 1 wound can be healed by medics SA.

Any thoughts?

In doing that you're creating additional book keeping, since you would have to keep track of whose been 'Mediced' you would really have to make some sort of 'Healed' marker you could place by the unit, and while I don't know about you I do know that between terrain, units and the markers we already have, things often get very busy and sometimes counters get misplaced.  There is nothing worse than finding out that the Behemoth should have been dead last turn but its player lost track of a wound counter.

Not to mention in "real life" terms...battlefield medicine is preety frightening - dodging bullets, chaos, and a casualty screaming like he's been shot...oh, yeah, HE HAS BEEN!  ;)

Two medics are NOT going to concentrate on the same wounded squaddie.  If you have two medics close together, the enemy has a great grenade target.  Take out the medics, NO ONE gets healed!

In "real life" I put as much faith in the Geneva Convention Rules of Warfare as the enemy does - none.  I "lose" my medic insignia (big red cross on a stark white background)the moment I get off the plane/chopper/boat and never requisition another - it makes too good a target for the sniper.  I never know where the other medics are as we know not to clump together (one area-effect weapon can be very demoralizing when it's gets three or four people - two of 'em being medics).

The reason I used "real life" was as an example of what the game is attempting to simulate while keeping the game fast and, above all, fun.

The reason complications usually arise is through people trying to bring more to the game than should be there.  IMHO, the medic ability works great as is - no need to tinker.

I'll never forget the look on Archer's (John Tinney) face when he took out my Vulkan Sergeant, only to see him revived by a Dragoon medic.  He looked as if someone had told him Santa, the Easter bunny and the Great Pumpkin were never going to visit him, again.  It was beautiful - ask him.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2005, 02:17:19 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Pietia

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Karma: +33/-5
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2005, 01:24:55 AM »
Medics would be too good, if they were "resurrecting" models with ease, like in the good old times of 2nd edition. They're also so expensive (and competing with other specialists for the slots), that any "2 medics working on 1 guy" situation is roughly as probable as in Real Life TM (zip, zero and no way...) - so any such ruling is not really needed, IMO. I'd like to see some kind of morale boost to the troops, that know that, if something happens to them, there's a guy which can help them. Inspiration or something similar...

Offline behemoth

  • Journeyman
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Karma: +7/-1
    • Kimmo's Corner
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2005, 11:38:19 PM »
Having two Technomancers keeping a Behemoth alive could be a player's chosen strategy.

If the Behemoth has lost, say, 5 wounds, I can see no reason why the Technomancers can't both try to heal (yes, heal, as opposed to just keeping the monster able to fight) the Behemoth (one attempt per turn) each and every turn until the model is fully healed or receives more wounds that can be healed.


"Just 'Cos You Got The Power,
That don't mean you got the right."
-Motorhead

Offline Catinator

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2005, 12:08:19 AM »
I have no problem as it works for 1 wound models.

For multi-wound models I think it is possible to restore more then 1 wounds if more "Medic" is working on the patient. 1 medic can restore 1 wound per round. Regeneration is indeed a different thing and should be treated separately.

If the opponent is lucky with the dice his medics will be your least worry.  ;)

We were thinking about some special cases where the medic would be no use. For example if a 1 wound trooper is hit by a heavy weapon that causes more than 1 wound (damage modifier x2 or more) and fails more than 1 saving throws - it could be considered as overkilled - not much left to patch.
Could give a bit difference to the match without overcomplicating as it is resolved on the spot.

                 Greetings,

                                       Catinator

Offline Enker

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
  • Karma: +16/-1
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2005, 10:56:47 PM »
I have no problem as it works for 1 wound models.

For multi-wound models I think it is possible to restore more then 1 wounds if more "Medic" is working on the patient. 1 medic can restore 1 wound per round. Regeneration is indeed a different thing and should be treated separately.

If the opponent is lucky with the dice his medics will be your least worry.  ;)

We were thinking about some special cases where the medic would be no use. For example if a 1 wound trooper is hit by a heavy weapon that causes more than 1 wound (damage modifier x2 or more) and fails more than 1 saving throws - it could be considered as overkilled - not much left to patch.
Could give a bit difference to the match without overcomplicating as it is resolved on the spot.

                 Greetings,

                                       Catinator

Isn't that in the rules? Am I back in 1st Edition?
We play, that a medic cannot heal more wounds than the model originaly had.
If it takes more wounds in a game he is just to wracked to be healed.
Marines! Lets kick some A S S!

Offline Catinator

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Karma: +2/-0
Re: Medic ability
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2005, 12:13:38 AM »
No, it cannot gain more wounds than it originally had. Never meant anything else.

I have to get back my rulebook and check the issues.

                Greetings,

                                  Catinator