Errs...or just a weak Brotherhood?

[darkbaxter]

1) Isn't that an err that Death Angel (the only b'hood support) has weaker weapon than for example
grunt specialists in bauhaus who deal even greater damage with their machine guns carrying IN THEIR HANDS?
-> it should fire at least to long or have DMG 14 if it should be the only support b'hood has
->it is much better to use inkvizitor majoris who is cheaper, smaller, with better stats, more easily operable and
there is no fear of permanet losing capability of fire or move..

2) Is the price of b'hood mortificator corect? Comparing to cheaper crucifiers they have movement 1 less, their
AR is weaker by 1, their strength is smaller and the abylity of the shadow walk is much more useless than
excellent crucifiers secondary attack. (Crucifiers are 2 point cheaper). Nobody would take mortificators now...
-> shouldn't they have at least MV 4 or Stalking ability?


3) Isn't, for example, Litany of marksmanshipt utterly useless spell? - you need to suceed to get +4 RC for ONE shot.
It is better to use a simple action of AIM, get +3RC for sure and shoot as many times you want with this modifier
(not mention that this spell may only be used by a caster and vast majority of b'hood chanellers have handguns)-> try to compare b'hood with DL and you'll see the difference..

It seems that EE made the brotherhood the weakest! (i know there are some good models, but very, very few -
comparing to other corparations)

This was the most obvioous at the Poland Championship in Warsaw, where i was the only person who played Brotherhood.
->Is this only my feeling or not? - what do you think?

Does the EE preparing some improvements for b'hood? (FT specialists / mortar/ sniper or any other support) - does anybody have some info?

[Veez]

DIE HERETIC!!!

Ahem. 

Sorry-reflex action-not a comment on the validity of your ideas.

[darkbaxter]

DIE HERETIC!!!

Ahem. 

Sorry-reflex action-not a comment on the validity of your ideas.

hmmm... very hell-pful ..thank ya..

[Archer]

DIE HERETIC!!!

Ahem. 

Sorry-reflex action-not a comment on the validity of your ideas.

hmmm... very hell-pful ..thank ya..

heehee...

  The discussion of the Mort's Shadowwalk and the Assassin simple suckyness has come up.  Sometime in the future, Mr McGee and myself will be discussing some simple tweaks that will address both Shadowwalk and the very undepowered assassin.

As we discussed in our game on Monday, Shadowwalk really is diffcult to use unless in half-movement areas or if you wish to pass through walls (still a slight debate on that one).

  The Assassin is being looked at to see if having an increase in CC and a 2ndary attack will make him more effective.  Right now, he has issues killing anything larger than a LI grunt.

[DenGrasse]

please... deathbringer is also assassin... he also needs some better chance...

[warzoneD]

Our group just upped a few stats (+1 CC, +1 ST, +1 MV) and gave him an extra power choice (Cost 45). 

A bit aribtrary perhaps, but we felt appropriate for the model...and he's feeling much better now.

[dmcgee1]

At the risk of opening up old discussions, why is it that when someone is unhappy with a model's stats/abilities/etc, the knee-jerk reaction is that it is broke.

For one, I look first at my tactics, force choice, and overall use of the model.  I will solicit feedback from my opponent on how I used the model.  I will try to use all that information to learn to use the model better.  I will not assume that the model is broke if I have not yet learned how to play it within my force.

I would recommend that anyone play a few games in more than one type of environment against more than one other player.  It is only in this way that the model can be, truly, tested.

If one is going to point directly to points and stats, one leaves out many other variables.  I implore further playing and testing before I attempt to offer advice or consider bumping this to the FAQ team.

Forgive my rant, but I went through this trying to defend other model's, and feel that this may be anotehr example of blaming the model and the system, unduly.

[Topkick]

Well said Dave, well said.

[Coil]

Well said indeed Dave. The must-be-broken reaction is common on many boards for lots of different games.

A lot of the time it is a case of not having learned to play the model. There are however instances where the model may in fact be broken but those are a lot rarer than one would think.

[warzoneD]

A very good point!  Thank you for your insights.

D

[Dr. Nick]

without going into detail,

while playing with the army builder, i had the impression that a given brotherhood force would be weaker than my (played) cybertronic, imperial, capitol, illian & muawijeh of equal size.

overall, the army is not weak as eg. the troopers are nice, the sniper is ok (RC9, DAM15)
and the deathangel is W4/1.  (since itīs a vehicle is always better than the IM, imho (move+shoot, or +3 RC))

but in the end a poor character choise and weak elite troops make for a smaller and weaker army..
example:

1000 Pts  -   Brotherhood: Second Directive Army

4* 4 Trooper @ 121 Pts
     AC-19 Volcano Assault Rifle
     1 Trooper Decurion @ [19] Pts
          Confesso Chainsword; P-60 Punisher
     1 Trooper Sniper @ [34] Pts
          Mephisto Sniper Rifle; Folding Bipod
(1/4 without bipod)

2 Death Angel @ 2*76 Pts
     Anointer Mounted Autocannon

4 Arch Primate @ 146 Pts
     AC-19 Volcano Assault Rifle; MP-22 Machine Pistol
     1 Arch Primate Decurian @ [34] Pts
          AC-19 Volcano Assault Rifle; GL-170 Under Barrel GL; MP-22 Machine Pistol

1 Blessed Vestal Laura @ 50 Pts
     Castigator Power Spear; P-60 Punisher
     Exorcise Barrier [4]

3 Crucifers @ 99 Pts
     MP-22 Machine Pistol; Punisher Short Sword

-> move to a wall, wait for the enemy, surprise with a successful ExBar

1 inquisitor Majoris @ 71 Pts
     AC-41 Heavy Machine Gun; Personal Incinerator; Book of Law

Total Army Cost: 999

esp. the crucifiers are strange with MV3.. (and not _that_ hard)

VS.

1000 Pts  -   Capitol: Navy Army

4* 4 Heavy Infantry @ 138 Pts
     M-13 Bolter Pistol; M-50 Assault Rifle
     1 Heavy Infantry Sgt. @ [24] Pts
          Ash-88 Chainsword; M-13 Bolter Pistol; M-50 Assault Rifle
     1 Heavy Infantry Sniper @ [38] Pts
          M-13 Bolter Pistol; SR-50 Manstalker Sniper Rifle; Folding Bipod

1 Blood and Guts Lt. Colonel @ 48 Pts
     Ash-88 Chainsword; MP-103 Hellblazer SMG

1 Major Maria Del Torres @ 42 Pts
     Laser Sight; M-13 Bolter Pistol; M-50 Assault Rifle

2 Great Grey @ 2*65 Pts
     M-99 Mounted HMG

1 Assault Marine Captain @ 45 Pts
     M-13 Bolter Pistol; M-89 Heavy Machine Gun
4 Assault Marines @ 183 Pts
     M-74 Assault Carbine
     1 Assault Marine Sgt. @ [29] Pts
          Ash-88 Chainsword; M-74 Assault Carbine
     1 Assault Marine RL Specialist @ [50] Pts
          DPAT-9 RL; Anti-Personnel Rockets

Total Army Cost: 1000


the assassins rules as well as most of the art / dark symmetry is not very well implemented (imho )
as is the shadow walk.. min. 2 A for 6 ī move... on a ~ 50 % chance..

(->i would almost never burn an action on a ~50% just to get 1 turn of +2 A..)


also, the assassin is not deadly enough.. the mantis sword gives effective D 11 with is not really worth the fuss..
just get a RC11 - 13 Char with an AR instead of all the stalking...  (not the BH, to bad  )

=> yes, the brotherhood is the weakest.

they need quicker and harder CC troops (and deserve them!) with killing stroke and MV 4 all around!
the chars need to be reworked and made both good and expensive (as opposed to exprensive + useless stuff)

also, donīt compare any army to bauhaus..
this army is simply sweet.. expept for CC, but just try to break free 3 times and shoot the ___ (enter any CC guy lucky enough to survived this far)

[Archer]

Unlike Dave, I happen to play the maligned Churchmen... and while I have had some success with them, they are a hard army to get the most out of due to some design flaws in their list.  Personally, I blame He Who Should Not Be Named.... but there is nothing that can be done right now about it other than try to do teh best one can.

  And Dave, whenever you wanna borrow my book-thumpers, you are more than welcome to.  If you can get them to work and work well (ie: consistantly), I'll buy you a bottle of the expensive 94-proof Jack Daniels.  Yup- money where my mouth is...
_______________________________


I've had similar issues with the Brotherhood Troops and Individuals.

Some of the things I have thought woiuld bring the individuals into alignment with something resembling their fluff...  REMEMBER- thesse are suggestion changes that Iwould make ifI were able to make changes to this game.  And only Suggestions.

Mortificators:  These are mostly tight models and I've had a decent amount of success with them.  About the only thing I would definately change is shadowwalk- it should only require 1 action to activate and use... and only 1 time a turn.   It would really make the Mortificators damn deadlier.

Assasin: He's a punk a LI Captain could put a whuppin to.  I would change his stalk to Unseen Assailaint (Why? cause you aren't supposed to see him coming!!) and maybe crank up the spikes to a x2 damage.  This would likely bring his points to like 50-55 point range.  And he'd finally be worth his points.

Inquisitor and Inquisitor Majore:  I never really had issue with these guys- they always have performed fairly decently and something of a bargan for what they have.  And they are designed to walk up behind that advancing line of troops and put a hurt on the Heretical Enemy (whoever it is)

Crenshaw:  He's a monster if he gets close... and should have Secondary Attack to make him more so.

Visionary:  Should have a new ability called Gunfighter (fire two pistols for one action (-1 to hit with both)... and the return of her Violator Blade.  This would increase her points by at least 12.

The Sentinels... should have Enhanced Charge instead of Ambush- I see them as more experienced and skilled  Sacred Warriors.  I'd leave the points...
Furies also stay....

A 1st Directorate Force would be very CC oriented... but they are kinda all about taking it to the massed hordes of the Legion.
A 2nd Directorate force is all about Anti-Cult and smiting small groups of heretical Corporate troops...  with the Assassins and Morts being tasked with eliminating enemy leadership.  Vestals and Valkyries are designed to be Hammer/Anvil with the sneaky types causing their own havoc to buy them time to get into position.

  At least thats how I see it....  and I happen to like my underpowered brotherhood.   Some good basic troop and elites but some flawed signature units and individuals.

[dmcgee1]

I'll take that challenge - what are you doing, today?  (and leave you "monely where your mouth is" out of it, okay )

[Archer]

I'll take that challenge - what are you doing, today?  (and leave you "monely where your mouth is" out of it, okay )

Nothing exceptional today.

ANd so I have fat finger syndrome.  I can type- just not always accurately. 

[Dragon62]

I like the brotherhood, but would also like to see some changes in them. IMHO here are a few of the changes I'd personally make:
 1) Elite Troopers: FT Specialist
 2) Redemption Assassin: Silenced Pistol and add Sword. Change Fastshot and Dire to Stealth 2 and secondary attack.
 3) Sentinal: Enhanced Charge
 4) Same as Archer above Gunfigther and sword
 5) Mortificator: Secondary attack instead of Shadow Walk
 6) Crucifier: FT Specialist and personally 2 RC/2 CC atacks instead of secondary attack
 7) Vestals: LFT Specialist
  Assassin and Crenshaw: Should both have Seconary Attack