Author Topic: Quit your Kvetching  (Read 16340 times)

Offline Pietia

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2006, 11:31:36 PM »
I guess this is an area where your friends and I differ, I think the rules are by a large margin the most important element to a game.  
The problem is - Warzone is not the only game with good rules. Warmachine, Confrontation and some other games also have excellent rules, unfortunately, they have better minis too. A completely new gamer presented with a choice of two equally good rulesets will usually chose the one with nice looking minis, not one with minis looking like they were sculpted in early eighties. Most of people around here (Poland in this case) who play Warzone now have fond memories of 1st or 2nd edition, large collections of miniatures (usually at least a thousand or so...). All they really had to buy was the book and some of the newer minis - all the old, fugly miniatures were already on their shelves.

As for gutting the line, suggested by kman - this is one of the things the new license holder will have to do. He'll probably have to start with rules based on 2nd edition anyway (UWZ is EE's intellectual property, if I'm correct). This means, that a gutted product line will result in lower time to market (less units to playtest), easier start for new retailers... BTW - look, at what Rackham is doing (or GW for that matter) - they're gradually phasing out all their old products and replacing them with new sculpts. This both keeps the money flowing (everybody wants the new, nicer sculpts) and retailers happy (the product range is wide, but not too much - they can stock almost everything).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 11:42:50 PM by Pietia »

Offline behemoth

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2006, 05:38:54 AM »
As Wedge noted, not looking for a fight here, just some spirited discussion.  And for those that made it through all of my rambling, congrats.  :P

I wholeheartedly agree to everything you said in your post.


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That don't mean you got the right."
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Offline JohnL5555

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2006, 11:38:55 AM »
  Am I speaking for them? Perhaps a little Wedge. How many fans that were familiar names have long since left the game due to issues with EE? Even you have to admit that is true. I guess BEST may be something too debate. Best to me means that the rules are solid and the game has a marked presence in the marketplace. While UWZ may have acheived the 1st it sure never did the 2nd.

I'm not talking about having the old sculpts available. I mean as SEPERATE troop types. I haven't ever heard anyone saying that this was a really great idea. I believe it was done to make UWZ appear as if there were all sorts of new army unit choices available. It was a bad idea, period. Oh, I too like some of the OLD sculpts. But EE's decision wasn't a customer friendly one. It forced some players to buy figs that weren't comparable with current industry standards. Are you really supporting that decision?

EE DID keep the sculpts available. I would suggest that even without EE the secondary market was pretty flooded after Target's demise. i know i have actively been buying off Ebay for the last 4-5 years and found everything that I could want and more. I also believe that someone else may well have picked up the license. The game had simply been too popular for someone not to take a serious look at doing so. I could list EE's ongoing and constant issues. But, I believe most of us are quite aware of their shortcomings. Their utter failure to release any decent amount of new sculpts was pretty bad. Figs promised a year ago still haven't been released. Poor job anyway you look at it. The rules are an editing nightmare. They are also too large to readily carry around. I also am no fan of how the new lists were done. They seemed to be more about forcing past fans to buy new figs to field new armies instead of fielding ones they owned and buying NEW sculpts for those armies. Perhaps EE knew they wouldn't ever really be releasing the mass of new figs for WZ and decided this would be the way they sold figs. I don't know.

This is my opinion. But there are some facts on which it is based. Besides Wedge. it's pretty moot now. EE and WZ are soon to be a thing of the past and UWZ will probably not be part of any new WZ incarnation (if the game is to come back again) due to it being an EE property. Perhaps, 2nd will make a return. I think Kman made some excellent points, too.

Thanks,

John
 


  I am also hoping that things turn out ok. I would humby suggest that a major faction of Warzone fans would debate the best incarnation ever statement.

Are you speaking for them?  I am not trying to start a fight but where are you pulling this information from?

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I think the core rules are quite good.

I agree.

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But, their present presentatiion is not. The inclusion of OLD sculpts into the game as seperate troop types was a poor choice and will hopefully disappear.

This is debatable.  Some people really liked some of the older sculpts.  I know there are some that I prefer.

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I would vigorously debate that EE 'RAISED' the bar in any meaningful way for Warzone. That may have been part of the issue. Who knows.............

As opposed to what?  No Warzone or Chronopia at all?  In my opinion that raises the bar from 0 to 100.  Could the product have been much better?  Sure, there is always room for improvement.  But nothing is ever truly error free.

And for future note, I am only stating my opinions--not my opinions as facts or on behalf of anyone else.

Offline mchiao

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2006, 12:39:33 PM »
johnl5555,

I sort of disagree with you on the recycling of old figs.  The way I see it, EE is more on the consumer friendly side.  In a way, it is trying to protect player's "investment".  A very good example is Bauhaus's Hussar.  Imagine if you have 3 squads of the old Hussars, had EE got rid of them, you would have to buy another 3 squads to replace them.  Or you can simply use the old Hussar as it is.  Granted, in a tournament, it probably wouldn't make any difference partly is because EE don't have a complete line (another topic).

For EE to survive, a new edition of rule is a way to generate cash flow.  That along is not enough, IMHO.  New sculpts will definitely help but what is the best way to entice player to buy new figs without antagonizing them at the same time?  I think EE's solution may not be perfect but definitely helps.


Offline kman

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2006, 02:52:26 PM »
Mchiao, I'm more than a bit confused about your Hussar example.  I don't think anyone who has advocated that EE or a future licensee only make use of new sculpts has stated that old sculpts should no longer be allowed.  Heck, even GW allows you to use old versions of new models in their sanctioned tournaments.

You're right, it's essential to make sure that a gamer's investment seems well worth it, even when the company is trying to sell them new models.  But the maintenance of that perceived good investment is reliant not on the continued existence of particular sculpts, but of rules for the related troop types.  There could be Hussar resculpts without end, but as long as the rules for that troop type exist, your investment in the original sculpts would not be lessened.

Offline mchiao

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2006, 07:58:59 PM »
Kman,

All I'm saying is that EE did what they thought it was best for the both world.  Let's think abou this for a moment.  If EE didn't make the old Hussar into Pauldron Hussar, would you even think about buying the new Hussar?  If you also think about who is actually playing the game then I dont blame EE a bit for what they did.  Most of the players that still play Warzone probably got into since 1st edition if not 2nd edition.  Most Bauhaus players probably have a squad or 2 of Hussars already.  I can see some would buy the new Hussar but those are in the minority.  Like you said, even GW allows old version in tournament.  Why get the new one then? Why not save the money on the new stuff?

In the end, there is not much incentive for player to get the new sculpts.  Unless there is a new unit.  In Bauhaus Hussar's case, I think (in hind sight), EE should've made the new Hussar as the Pauldron and leave the old Hussar as it is.

BTW, I'm pretty much sure everyone knows this but the new Hussar isn't really new.  It was available back in the Target era.


Offline kman

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2006, 05:49:30 AM »
Mchiao,

You're right, you own the old Hussars.  I own the old Hussars.  Aside from being enticed by the newest toys (a strategy I might add, that has kept GW gamers rebuying their armies with each new incarnation for years) why would you or I buy a revised sculpt?

However, as is evidenced by the fact that nearly every WZ or Chronopia e-bay auction of late has been snapped up by a handful of people, very soon the number of gamers who own any WZ figures will dwindle to an even smaller amount than current.  Thus, a revitalization of either franchise would bring in a flood of gamers whom the current licensee doesn't need to reassure as to the viability of their old figures.

And this completely ignores the fact that both of these games have now been out of the limelight for so long that it's not just a matter of veteran gamers who no longer have their armies - there's an entire generation of new gamers who have never even heard of WZ and Chronopia.  It's these individuals that any new licensee needs to be targetting.  And forcing such individuals to buy the less aesthetically pleasing sculpts - regardless as to whether that's a 1st or 2nd Ed. sculpt - is a bad idea.

Of course, it might never have been EE's intention to try and thrust either of these games back into their positions of prominence.  There's obviously a fairly healthy, if small, community of grognards who are going to continue playing these games and a niche company could make some nice extra cash by providing them with occasional new toys.

However, I know that's not what I want, and doubt either EE or the rest of the WZ/Chronopia gaming community wanted that as well.

(As an aside, I realize that my direct response to you might seem a bit aggressive mchiao.  No offense is intended if I in fact offended.)

Offline Topkick

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2006, 05:58:40 AM »
........grognards........

Forgive my ignorance but just what is a grognard?
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss (1904 - 1991)

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Offline Coil

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2006, 06:07:21 AM »
Grognard

Seems there are quite a few different definitions of it.

Offline mchiao

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2006, 06:46:19 AM »

(As an aside, I realize that my direct response to you might seem a bit aggressive mchiao.  No offense is intended if I in fact offended.)

Kman,

None taken.  After all, we all have something in common,  our passion towards WZ/Chronopia.  And of course, our frustration derived from that passion.

All I can say is, if I get the chance to do this all over again, I would just say no.  But that is another story.

Offline Gubs

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2006, 07:46:27 AM »
Do what all over again?

Offline mchiao

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2006, 08:42:20 AM »
Getting into Warzone/Chronopia...

The figs... you know...

Offline Gubs

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2006, 09:00:21 AM »
By getting in, do you mean buying or getting into discussion? 

Sorry, just trying to understand what you mean.

Offline mchiao

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2006, 09:13:54 AM »
Getting into the game.

It started one Firstborn then cross over to Warzone... Then Devout/Swampie/SOK/Elves... then most of Corporations... then Blackblood/Dwarves... then Dark Legions...


Offline Gubs

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Re: Quit your Kvetching
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2006, 11:04:39 AM »
Gotcha.