My experience ordering Chronopia from Prince August

[Horned God]

I know what that is: it is oxidation of your miniatures. Should they give you a heafty discount for minis like that? Yes. Anyways I might order form Prince August?

I wanted to order Banshees (Division 13) possibly? Think it might be risky? Should I?

Also is Prince August the company that took over from Excelsior to produce the minis or do they simply sell old stock from other sources, like Excelsior they acquired?

[Delthos]

They purchased all of the remaining stock Target games had after they closed doors. What they have is all ther eever will be.

Apparantly the problem with lead rot isn't as much of a problem with the Warzone stuff, just the Chronopia stuff. You probably have much better chances of getting stuff in good condition. That being said, by the sounds of things most stuff in boxes, from the Chronopia line has problems, unless they were packaged in plastic bags inside the foam. It also sounds like the Dwarfs also have problems, even with blisters.

I had only one item with problems, out of about $350 dollars worth of orders.

If you stay away from boxes, and go with Warzone products, I think you stand better than 90% of having no problems. That being said I have plans to buy some Stygian stuff.

[Oakwolf]

Horned God : I've seen only very limited rot on warzone miniatures (Easily removable with a modeler's knife and file), nothing like those horror images on the first page (it's one of the best/worst case i've seen so far).

That said, i have miniatures that seem to have been cast with a lack of material, they look very "shiny" and miss some detail here and there. My most infamous example is one of my golgotha miniatures; she lacks half the back of her tighs and part of her bum, as well as half of the algeroth insigna. The replacement ones didn't show this problem.

[Petru5]

I'm with you, Oakwolf.  I've got a few WZ figs that I've had to apply Green Stuff to in order to fill in some poor casting.  It wasn't as bad as a flat-butted Golgotha (which ranks the same as a mullet in Walmart), but it was somehting that had to be handled or it would've looked silly.

I've not ever seen lead rot like that.  I didn't think that was possible!

[Oakwolf]

To further up the discussion, i've received my first chronopia miniatures from Prince August . They were from blisters, and most of the minis did not show any rot or oxydation of the metal apart 2 (out of 12). Of those, the stage of degradation was minor but the metal had changed color to the same flat grey, as if a very thin layer of the surface had oxydated.The only concern i have about it is that it might make the paint jobs look "roughened".


Since the models were in blisters, the cause might not even be related to how Prince August keep their stocks, but maybe how the things were cast in the first place.

[dmcgee1]

Speaking soley for myself, I would like to comment (perhaps from left field, perhaps not).

As a miniatures gamer, it has been my experience that there is always some measure of "poor" casting, blemishes and/or any other number of imperfections that require my attention in order for the model to turn out looking how I would like it to be.

That said, I find myself perplexed by the comments made about this.  I assume that no model will come to me in perfect condition.  Further, whether something as simple as flash or as complicated as a missing/damaged part, I simply chalk it up to the fact that nothing is 100% correct in life.  Things get through the quality assurance process (no matter the stringency) and I accept this.  It seems from the comments that I have read here that many do not.  Am I the only one that feels this way?

I grew up building models.  My fist was of a Sheridan light tank.  I was six years of age.  I built it with Elmer's glue and help from my father (a great memory).  Even while building that, there were some imperfections, but at six, I was more interested in building it and making it look like the picture on the box.  It didn't happen to look that way when done, but, I was six.

I built many more models throughout my life.  I was fortunate enough to live across the street from Debbie Dean.  She worked at a hobby warehouse.  She brought all kinds of models home that had defects (hence why she was able to bring them home). Most were missing parts, had broken parts, were missing instructions, etc.  I built every single one of them.

When I was in my early 20's, I was employed as a model maker.  I built things from scratch, including a six-feet by four-feet scale layout of Limerick niuclear power plant, a cutaway of a steam pump, scale models of the V-22 Osprey, the Bell-Boeing LHX, and more.  Many times I had to use "corrective measures," and many times, I had to scrap and start over.

I guess what I am trying to say is, is it truly expected that when one is buying discount minis that there will be no incidences of extra work needed on the part of the purchaser?

[Daargrim]

Speaking soley for myself, I would like to comment (perhaps from left field, perhaps not).

As a miniatures gamer, it has been my experience that there is always some measure of "poor" casting, blemishes and/or any other number of imperfections that require my attention in order for the model to turn out looking how I would like it to be.

That said, I find myself perplexed by the comments made about this.  I assume that no model will come to me in perfect condition.  Further, whether something as simple as flash or as complicated as a missing/damaged part, I simply chalk it up to the fact that nothing is 100% correct in life.  Things get through the quality assurance process (no matter the stringency) and I accept this.  It seems from the comments that I have read here that many do not.  Am I the only one that feels this way?

I grew up building models.  My fist was of a Sheridan light tank.  I was six years of age.  I built it with Elmer's glue and help from my father (a great memory).  Even while building that, there were some imperfections, but at six, I was more interested in building it and making it look like the picture on the box.  It didn't happen to look that way when done, but, I was six.

I built many more models throughout my life.  I was fortunate enough to live across the street from Debbie Dean.  She worked at a hobby warehouse.  She brought all kinds of models home that had defects (hence why she was able to bring them home). Most were missing parts, had broken parts, were missing instructions, etc.  I built every single one of them.

When I was in my early 20's, I was employed as a model maker.  I built things from scratch, including a six-feet by four-feet scale layout of Limerick niuclear power plant, a cutaway of a steam pump, scale models of the V-22 Osprey, the Bell-Boeing LHX, and more.  Many times I had to use "corrective measures," and many times, I had to scrap and start over.

I guess what I am trying to say is, is it truly expected that when one is buying discount minis that there will be no incidences of extra work needed on the part of the purchaser?

I can't speak for others, but the miniatures I received were well beyond what you are describing.  The worst of them were simply coated with grey-green crud.  Because of that, I ended up returning ANY miniature that showed ANY sign of the issue.  Some of these minis with minimal issues I probably would have lived with had that been the only problem. I would have attempted to file them down and clean them.   But that truly wasn't going to happen with 70% of the minis I returned.  It would have taken hours upon hours to clean up the mess, and much of the detail would have been ruined (or had already been destroyed).

So I understand what you are saying, but I just want anyone interested to know that I dont think what you are describing reflects my personal experience with these particular miniatures.

[Delthos]

Speaking soley for myself, I would like to comment (perhaps from left field, perhaps not).

As a miniatures gamer, it has been my experience that there is always some measure of "poor" casting, blemishes and/or any other number of imperfections that require my attention in order for the model to turn out looking how I would like it to be.

That said, I find myself perplexed by the comments made about this.  I assume that no model will come to me in perfect condition.  Further, whether something as simple as flash or as complicated as a missing/damaged part, I simply chalk it up to the fact that nothing is 100% correct in life.  Things get through the quality assurance process (no matter the stringency) and I accept this.  It seems from the comments that I have read here that many do not.  Am I the only one that feels this way?

I grew up building models.  My fist was of a Sheridan light tank.  I was six years of age.  I built it with Elmer's glue and help from my father (a great memory).  Even while building that, there were some imperfections, but at six, I was more interested in building it and making it look like the picture on the box.  It didn't happen to look that way when done, but, I was six.

I built many more models throughout my life.  I was fortunate enough to live across the street from Debbie Dean.  She worked at a hobby warehouse.  She brought all kinds of models home that had defects (hence why she was able to bring them home). Most were missing parts, had broken parts, were missing instructions, etc.  I built every single one of them.

When I was in my early 20's, I was employed as a model maker.  I built things from scratch, including a six-feet by four-feet scale layout of Limerick niuclear power plant, a cutaway of a steam pump, scale models of the V-22 Osprey, the Bell-Boeing LHX, and more.  Many times I had to use "corrective measures," and many times, I had to scrap and start over.

I guess what I am trying to say is, is it truly expected that when one is buying discount minis that there will be no incidences of extra work needed on the part of the purchaser?

I think you are coming out of left field with this. This isn't anyone saying they need to fix the problem. This has purely been and educational thread, at least that's what I took it as. It's also a warning to others that if you buy them, there will likely be problems with some of the miniatures. As for expecting miniatures with no flaws, not I don't expect flawless, but when I order I don't expect figures that are flawed beyond a certain point. Sure, mold lines and flash, even an occasional miscast part is too be expected. But not parts that are corroded so bad you can't make out details. I don't know about you, but the reason I buy miniatures is because I like to see and paint the details, not just to get the overall impression of what they are supposed to be. My experiences with lead rot have not been bad, all of the rot I'm experiencing has been minor and I'll fix, just as you talk about. I would definitely expect a refund for stuff that was worse than Daargrim showed in his first pictures on the thread, as even those shown were close to unusable in my opinion. These may be discount miniatures, but they are still selling them as out of print but new stock and they give no indication on their site that the miniatures could have problems. I've purchased plenty of old stock miniatures that are older than these are and I expected those to have no more problems than any other miniatures I purchased brand new. If they do have problems, I expect the seller to inform me of the problems before I purchase them. It will save us both hassle, time, and money.

Another problem with the corrosion is you have to remove it and also neutralize it, or it will continue to eat away at the miniatures, even after being painted. It's not like a miscast weapon, where you can green stuff over the poor spot and be good to go. I'm not opposed to fixing and cleaning up a reasonable amount of problems on miniatures.

So yes, I do expect miniatures to be up to a certain standard, even old discount miniatures, especially if there is no information saying that there is a problem with them.

[dmcgee1]

Perhaps I misspoke, or, at least, did not try to sympathize.  Models which are beyond repair are a whole other can of worms, but I have read of others complaining of smaller issues.  Also, I was trying topoint out that most of the good stock has, by now, been bought up, so PA has no stock to sell but the stuff that would not, ordinarily sell.  They are doing it at a discounted rate, but, I do understand and agree that unsalvageable models should not be sold.

In any event, I meant no disrespect, nor did I mean to infer that many were simply complaining to complain.  The complaints have merit.  I was, I guess, trying to get to the root of the issue.  I missed.  My apologies.

[Daargrim]

... Also, I was trying to point out that most of the good stock has, by now, been bought up, so PA has no stock to sell but the stuff that would not, ordinarily sell.  They are doing it at a discounted rate, but, I do understand and agree that unsalvageable models should not be sold....

Most of the issues I encountered were in shrink-wrapped boxes, so its not the case that these minis are just the end of their stock, and they are just now selecting and shipping out the worst of them.  They would have no idea which of the boxes were "good" or "bad".

However, it could be the case that just father time has damaged these models more than, say, the same boxed sets sold 1-2-3 years ago.

[Oakwolf]

I was looking through some very old emails today and I came across the following potential fix for the lead rot. You could try it. I'm going to try it on one of the pieces I don't plan on using tonight and see how it works. I'll let you know for sure.

You could try the old silver cleaning trick. Fill a pan or heat proof
bowl with water, it must be non-aluminum. Put aluminum foil in the
bottom, heat, and add baking soda till no more soda dissolves.

Drop in your lead mini, and the Aluminum should reduce it back to the
metal, and pull off the oxidation. This works great on tarnished
silver too, and is INSTANEOUS.

AL is a very strong reducing agent, the problem is it protected by a
oxide coating. Slightly basic conditions counteract this, and allow
the aluminum to reduce other metals.

I've tested this actually, submitting a few chronopia andwarzone miniatures that suffered from mild lead rot to the test. The miniatures were far from ruined, but the surface were roughened, and this would undoubtably worsen with time, and prevent any smooth painting.

Process used:

Iron pan with aluminium foil at the bottom. I pourred enough baking soda for it not to dilute in the water.
Then I heated this to a boil. It does produce a fluffy, foaming water (it is clear still and you could see the miniatures in there)

Effects:

The effect is definitely not instantaneous, nor actually that noticeable. However, i must say that a few rough areas seemed to loose part of their state and be minorly more recognisable. Another curious side effect, the miniature became dark grey instead of white metal. I'm no chemist so i have no idea what caused this.

I tried the good old "brasso" (made to polish pewter and many other materials) to remove the dark grey effect, but in vain.

Conclusion:

I'd rate this experiement as not conclusive; either a component i used was wrong, or it doesn't have much of an effect. Also...i've no idea why the miniatures turned dark grey, nor what it causes over time. I can definitely not say if lead rot will be stopped or worsened.

[Delthos]

Just wanted to point out, I made another order during their 10/10/10 sale. This time I ordered a bunch of Stygian stuff, and a few Dwarf and SoK things. The order arrived in quick time. Ordered it on the 10th and received it on the 27th. Not bad, but not the best. I've received stuff in a week from the UK. There were few mistakes. I got some things I didn't order and some things were missing. They told me to keep the stuff I was shipped in error and that they would get the items I didn't receive in the mail. Cool. In addition to that, they now have lower priced shipping to the US, as a matter of fact they only have the one shipping type to the US which is registered with a tracking number.

As I said the order was mostly Stygian, about 25 blisters and an Ophidianl. In addition to the Stygian, I ordered a blister of SoK Warriors, a blister of SoK Warhounds and a Dwarf Dark Tusk Totem and Keeper, and a Horned Raider and Tusked Raider. Instead of an Ophidian I got a Firstborn Chariot, and instead of some Stygian Swordsmen, Stygian Tree Devil, and Sok Warriors, I got Stygian Starved, Dwarf Wolf Legion, and a Ogre Heavy Infantry Standard.

Now as too the status of the corrosion. Except for a couple blisters of Starved which look like they either have very very light corrosion, or possibly mold dust/mold release powder, all the blisters have no corrosion. Even the the dwarf blister has none, as opposed to the one repor where most of the dwarves were corroded. As for the Firstborn Chariot, just like the SoK Chariot I got in an earlier shipment, it had light corrosion on most of the parts. The Dwarf Totem has no corrosion. An interesting observation is that the Dwarf Totem was produced in the USA and all the metal parts were packaged in a plastic bag, the Firstborn Chariot on the other hand was produced in Ireland and all the parts were sandwiched between the foam with no plastic bags. It's now obvious to me that there is something in the foam that is reacting with the metal and causing it to corrode prematurely. This is based on the fact that a couple months ago I purchased a Sisters of Tiamat and a SoK Chariot. The Sisters of Tiamat were packaged in a plastic bag and had no corrosion while the SoK Chariot was not in plastic bags and had corrosion. So, that being said, I keep my fingers crossed that the Ophidian is in plastic bags or it just doesn't have any corrosion. I'm confident the blisters will be fine as well. If not it'll be back to eBay watching for the next Ophidian to come up. If this one is corroded, I won't be letting another get by me I tell you!

I guess I'm just getting lucky. I really don't have plans to buy anymore figs so I'll never know! With big armies of Devout, Firstborn, SoK, Stygian, and a decent size Dwarf army, I've got a big enough variety of forces that I will be able to provide miniatures for any of my friends who may be interested. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have a Blackblood and Elf army but I don't need them. If my friends aren't satisfied with what I have they'll just have to find proxies! Truth be told I have a couple figs from both those armies, some figs I just had to have because I like them too much.

So I can reiterate, I've purchased Firstborn, SoK, Devout, Stygian, and a few Dwarf items from Prince August. Of those, we're talking about 100 blisters, almost none of those blistered items had corrosion, of those that do, I'm not even sure on and I think it's actually mold release powder and not corrosion. The boxed items are another story. All told I've gotten a SoK Chariot, SoK Blade Maidens, Firstborn Chariot, Dwarf Totem and Keeper, two sets of Devout Tormented and Damned, a Soul Flayer, a Sisters of Tiamat, and a yet to be received Ophidian. Of those, only two of them have been corroded and even that is light, it is not heavy at all. That is 2 (potentially 3) of nine boxes that have had problems. That is between 1/4 and 1/3 of them, which is pretty high. I think if you avoid boxed miniatures from the Chronopia line, you won't have any problems with ordering Chronopia figs from Prince August. Even then, they obviously have a fairly high proportion that don't have problems, albeit there are lots more boxed sets I didn't buy. I can't even say for sure if you order some of the boxes I ordered with no corrosion, that you will have the same experience.

All said and done Prince August has been outstanding to me. They've allowed me to get nearly everything I wanted and complete some armies I've got, two of them I never even had miniatures for in the past. I've only got good things to say about them.

[Daargrim]

Happy to hear you had a good experience, Delthos.  I will second your opinion that Prince August has always been good to work with and I always came away satisfied with their customer service.  Just had bad luck with their figs recently.

[Delthos]

Another update. I just received the three missing blisters and the missing Ophidian.

The blisters, Stygian Swordsmen (two pack), Stygian Tree Devil, and SoK Warriors (four pack) had no "lead rot". They are in beautiful condition. The Stygian Ophidian on the other hand is just starting to exhibit some lead rot. It's not significant at all though. Once I get it home and out of the foam in the box it should be alright. This was another one that was made in Ireland. I'm glad this one turned out good.

In my opinion, more and more evidence to stay away from certain boxed miniatures from the Chronopia line, not that all of them have the problem. (Stygian Sisters of Tiamat and Dwarf Totem and Keeper were packaged in internal plastic bags and had no problems.) As time goes by those ones that currently have lead rot in the box will only get worse and will be unsalvageable if not opened and removed from the foam. I really think there is something in the foam that is causing the corrosion to accellerate.

[brynolf]

The only lead rot I have come across is a very limited amount on some of the older Warzone Valkyries. Their cloaks were pretty messed up, but it was easy to remove with a scalpel. The only Chronopia models I have bought recently are some Dwarf axemen, and they were perfectly fine.