Friendly fire with template weapons

[Enker]

Are you allowed to use a template weapon (lets say a flamer) if you hit a friendly model, too?
There are some possible answers.
1. You are not allowed to us it.
2. You are allowed to use it.
3. Grunt Squads must make an LD test and Elite are allowed to use it (the same as friendly fire with a ranged weapon).

If there are two models in close combat and you shot with a flamer on them, who will you hit?
1. You hit always both of them, even if only one model is under the template.
2. You hit only the model(s) directly under the template.

Ok, we had the situation, that I wanted to flame a Deathbringer who was in close combat with a Hvy Inf.
We decided, that you are allowed to do this but Grunts must make an LD test for it (answer 3).
Further we decided that you always hit both models (answer 1), regardless of the fact that only the enemy model was under the template,
because two model in CC are twisted together.

But, here was another question, too. The flamer was an Orca. Does Support count as Elite in terms of friendly fire?
We decided that it depends on the LD of the model, same as with individuals.

What is your oppinion on these three questions?

[Ruther]

I would play it the same. Any shooting wich involves a freindly unit in the target area needs that LD Roll if its a grunt choice (template weapons dont make a difference).

About the Support counts as Elite, its not a bad rule to distinct them, so sounds good to me.

[dmcgee1]

Are you allowed to use a template weapon (lets say a flamer) if you hit a friendly model, too?
There are some possible answers.
1. You are not allowed to us it.
2. You are allowed to use it.
3. Grunt Squads must make an LD test and Elite are allowed to use it (the same as friendly fire with a ranged weapon).

Answer: 3

If there are two models in close combat and you shot with a flamer on them, who will you hit?
1. You hit always both of them, even if only one model is under the template.
2. You hit only the model(s) directly under the template.

Answer: 1, even if the shooting model happens to have the Deadshot SA (CC is a whirling mass of combat, and is only represented, on the table, by the models.  The models do not show the actual position of the combat, therefore, templates hit all involved in the CC).  Of course, the Deadshot SA applies to a non-template weapon, as normal.

[dmcgee1]

But, here was another question, too. The flamer was an Orca. Does Support count as Elite in terms of friendly fire?
We decided that it depends on the LD of the model, same as with individuals.

Answer: No - Support Units do not count as Elites, for this purpose.  They are subject to LD tests at -4, like any other non-Elite or non-Deadshot unit.

[chribu]

grunts need to do a LD test at -4.
but don't ALL units also need to do a LD test at -8, as they're attacking a friendly model? So grunts have to do 2 LD tests, one at -4 and one at -8?

[chribu]

Answer: No - Support Units do not count as Elites, for this purpose.  They are subject to LD tests at -4, like any other non-Elite or non-Deadshot unit.

wouldn't support have to do this LD test only if they have LD<12? I thought that was what i was told from PFC Joe in the other thread...

[Gallagher_Standard_Barer]

When firing into CC grunts, and support must make a leadership test at -4 or not be allowed to shoot, elites can always fire into CC.  However in the case of a template weapon that will hit a friendly model this is not the same as firing into CC, since when firing into CC there is a chance you will hit a teammate, when using a template weapon like a flamer it is no longer a chance but a certainty, therefore you are firing at a friendly model, which requires a leadership test at -8 from all units.

[chribu]

ok, so any model trying to fire a template weapon that will hit a friendly model, will have to pass a LD test at -8, no matter what kind of unit they are (grunt, elite or support)?

[Gallagher_Standard_Barer]

As I understand things, yes. 

The only possible exception I see is models with Unscrupulous or Execute, who might be able to target friendly models without penalty, I'll have to check on that when I get home and can look at my rulebooks.

[PFC joe]

For Grunts (without Deadshot or unscrupulous) and Individuals/Support with less than 12 LD you must first pass the required test to shoot into CC.  There is no penalty for this test.  If you fail, the action is wasted.  Elites and Individuals/Support with Greater than 13 LD may automaticaly fire into CC.  If you miss by more than 4 then you hit the friendly model in CC with your target.

unless you are going to fire a template weapon into CC.

If you are going to hit a friendly model with a template you must first  pass a LD test at -8 before you can fire.  (Unscrupulous ignores that).  if you fail you lose the rest of your actions for this turn.  There is no additional test, only the -8 one.  You must make this test for each time you wish to fire into CC  (only once for multipe ROF weapons).



-PFC joe

[dmcgee1]

For Grunts (without Deadshot or unscrupulous) and Individuals/Support with less than 12 LD you must first pass the required test to shoot into CC.  There is no penalty for this test.  If you fail, the action is wasted.  Elites and Individuals/Support with Greater than 13 LD may automaticaly fire into CC.  If you miss by more than 4 then you hit the friendly model in CC with your target.

unless you are going to fire a template weapon into CC.

If you are going to hit a friendly model with a template you must first  pass a LD test at -8 before you can fire.  (Unscrupulous ignores that).  if you fail you lose the rest of your actions for this turn.  There is no additional test, only the -8 one.  You must make this test for each time you wish to fire into CC  (only once for multipe ROF weapons).


-PFC joe

I beg to differ, Joe.  There is, indeed, a -4 penalty to the LD test to fire into CC involving friendly models.  I cite pg.  66, section 11.4.1 - Firing into Close Combat and Morale.

Only if you wish to voluntarily attack a friendly unit must the LD test be passed at -8.  If this means that a firendly in CC with the enemy will be hit when targeting with a template weapon, then I would agree that the -8 modifier applies.

For Grunts (without Deadshot or unscrupulous) and Individuals/Support with less than 12 LD you must first pass the required test to shoot into CC.
Elites and Individuals/Support with Greater than 13 LD may automaticaly fire into CC. 

Where does this leave those with LD 12 or 13? 

Just kidding - I understand <12 and >13.  Yes?

[Jervon]

And what happens when i shot to models fighting in CC whit shotgun - cluster effect 4 - and there is more models than CE?  May I cover only enemy models whit the template?

[chribu]

I think that if there are more models than CE, and the extra models are not enemy models, you can still shoot normally, as the shooter knows he won't hit his allies, as CE is fixed and not random in this game. Although in reality it's random, so... how much realism do we want to put in the game?

[Gallagher_Standard_Barer]

If two models are in close combat it doesn't matter that the template only covers one of them, since in close combat the two models are just one big swirling mass of mutant chronicles melee, you cannot target one but not the other, you would have to make a LD test to fire at a friendly model, then you would have to resolve the shotgun blast as normal, starting with the nearest target and progressing backwards up to a number of targets equal to the Cluster Effect.  If the shot reaches the models in CC before reaching its cluster effect, then use the normal mechanic for detirmining which model is hit, then if there is still any cluster rating remaining the other model in CC would also be hit.

On a second reading my post may not have been as clear as I had originally hoped, I hope you're able to take something helpful from it.

[chribu]

If they are in CC, you'll hit first one then the other, or just one of the 2, and then move onto other models? (if cluster effect 2)

But the question was, what if e.g.  cluster effect 2, and there are 2 enemy models close by, then 2 of my units further away, I know i won't hit them because CE is 2 and not 3 or 4. But in reality, shooting is not so precise so i could end up hitting one of my men further away