Author Topic: Berserk & Fear Question  (Read 36819 times)

Offline joshuaslater

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3684
  • Karma: +115/-4
  • Homebase: Philadelphia, PA
Berserk & Fear Question
« on: January 24, 2006, 07:01:44 AM »
Okay, Dalton's Ogre Death Seeker moves within four inches of my Wolf Clan Axe Men.  I fail the Fear test.  The way we've been playing it is that these guys can't charge the Ogre--they're already afraid, meaning they can't charge it, (you can't charge the fear causing model) and go berserk on that charge.  Is this correct?  Can you go berserk if you've failed a fear test, or do you have to move away from the Fear causing model, regroup, hope to win initiative, then go berserk and charge? 
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline Anomander_Rake

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Fortune favours the brave
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2006, 07:20:26 AM »
As always you question is very interesting and a very hard one... ;)

I would say yes, because
* Berserk is a special ability, and they are ranked higher, as I see it, than the normal rules...
* you can't berserk if panicked..so as there is no explanation for fear, it should work that way...

I would say no, because
* if it should be like you say, you could give the unit steadfast or immune to fear or something like this...
* it doesn't make sense...first you wet your pants when seing your foe, and then you get angry and kill him cause you wet your pants?  ;)
* not being immune to fear for example is a drawback and by using berserk you would ignore this...I don't think it should work this way...
* when you are in fear, you have only one action, you may make another fearcheck, move away or attack another model/unit within range...

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake
It's better to be silent and thought the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Offline masherking

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1499
  • Karma: +44/-0
  • THE ALLATLOH of ROCK n' ROLLA
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2006, 08:18:19 AM »
At the con the ruling was berserk will override fear.
  rules state if the model is panicked (failed moral check) before it goes berserk then no. I think this is to prevent a squad thats down 50% +  fail a moral check just to use berserk to ignore the failed rolled.
  But it says nothing about fear in fact it says if model goes berserk it ignores fear and no longer prone to test for panick.

so the short of it. If squads panicked it cant go berserk. but if fear model steps in -cause a non-panick squad to suffer fear. The squad can op to go berserk and ignore it.
       it would seem berserking models are crazy like that.  :P
        at least this is how bill ruled it at the con.


* it doesn't make sense...first you wet your pants when seing your foe, and then you get angry and kill him cause you wet your pants?  ;)

 in the moments of greatest fear the person either breaks down or flips outs and goes bat nuts crazy. Kinda like a berserker. :P
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 08:27:01 AM by masherking »
Goddamn! its good to be the MasherKing.
home: New Jersey
E-bay: Johny_wonderful

Offline joshuaslater

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3684
  • Karma: +115/-4
  • Homebase: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2006, 09:00:40 AM »
If that's the case Steve, it would seem that Berserk confers immune to fear; you can just ignore the fear test because you are going to go berserk anyway.  I am going to stick to my guns and argue that you can't; under the Berserk special ability it says this is a free action on a charge, (if I'm not mistaken, no rulebook at the office) so how can you go berserk when you're stricken with fear and CAN'T charge the big baddie?  This could use tidying up in the errata, even if just to state what some would think straightforward.

P.S.--Please don't take offence; Bill's ruling at the con had no bearing on you sweeping the tourney and kickin' my butt.  I really would like a definitive answer on this so I can kill Dalton's Ogres and Trolls.   ;D

Sincerely,

Joshua Slater, future court jester in the hall of the masherking.   Cheers.
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline masherking

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1499
  • Karma: +44/-0
  • THE ALLATLOH of ROCK n' ROLLA
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2006, 09:26:39 AM »
P.S.--Please don't take offence

None was taken.  ;)
I to would like to hear what others say.
Troll killing is serious work and one must make sure its done right. 8)
Goddamn! its good to be the MasherKing.
home: New Jersey
E-bay: Johny_wonderful

Offline joshuaslater

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3684
  • Karma: +115/-4
  • Homebase: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 09:40:51 AM »
As a fellow Dwarf player I know who's side you're on.  In playing devil's advocate/rules lawyer I am REALLY HOPING THE RULE COMES DOWN ON YOUR SIDE!  This will change things drastically with our games, and boy will I feel sheepish if we've been playing it wrong all this time.  (Like so many other things, sigh)   My obsessive-compulsion in editing the rules comes from an English major background--our current rulebook riles me to no end, and I've offered my editorial eye to EE for anything further they print.  I'm hoping Thom takes me up on this.  Cheers, and LONG LIVE THE MASHERKING!
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline Nikodemus

  • Journeyman
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 12:21:31 PM »
The rule clearly states: You must state you are going to Berserk BEFORE YOU ENTER COMBAT.

To enter combat means charging, there is no other way to enter combat...
So you move your model in btb to the other model and say: I charge your XYZ and go Berserk.
 
As you are not allowed to charge (i.e. enter combat) the model which caused the fear check, you may not go berserk and charge the fear inducing model.

Going berserk and charging any other model while under the effect of fear is perfectly legal though...

Offline joshuaslater

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3684
  • Karma: +115/-4
  • Homebase: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2006, 12:38:17 PM »
I thought the only legal action while under the effects of fear was to move away from the fear causing model. 
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline Coil

  • Board Member- First Crusader
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1228
  • Karma: +88/-1
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 01:08:50 PM »
The rule clearly states: You must state you are going to Berserk BEFORE YOU ENTER COMBAT.

To enter combat means charging, there is no other way to enter combat...
So you move your model in btb to the other model and say: I charge your XYZ and go Berserk.
 
As you are not allowed to charge (i.e. enter combat) the model which caused the fear check, you may not go berserk and charge the fear inducing model.

Going berserk and charging any other model while under the effect of fear is perfectly legal though...
Gonna have to disagree with you. The Berserk rules say:
Quote
A unit with this Special Ability may choose to go into a Berserker rage and attack an enemy model with increased Ferocity. You must state youa re going to Berserk before you enter combat (this does not take an Action)
Entering Berserk is not part of the Charge action. You choose to go into Berserker rage before you enter combat. So by the time you charge you are already in Berserker mode and thus immune to Fear.

Also note the final sentence
Quote
You may not go into Berserk if panicked
It only mentions Panic, not Fear.

I would say that the rules allow you to go Berserk if affected by Fear, but I would like to hear what Wedge and Southpaw have to say.

Quote
I thought the only legal action while under the effects of fear was to move away from the fear causing model.
Take a look at page 77, under "The effects of Fear are as follows". :)

You cannot charge the Fear-causing model but you could shoot him, stab him with a spear or even hit him if you are already in CC with it.

/Andreas

Offline joshuaslater

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3684
  • Karma: +115/-4
  • Homebase: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2006, 01:14:10 PM »
With that in mind, what's the point of having a roll for a fear check against models with the Berserk ability?  It seems they are also Immune to Fear.  If you lose one action due to the effects of fear and can't charge the fear causing model, can you go Berserk on another nearby model within one move, begging the question; are you still in fear at all?  What happens next?

To bring it into focus; what happens when the fear causing model comes within four inches of the unit with berserk and they fail the fear check, because they're not berserk yet?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2006, 01:19:07 PM by joshuaslater »
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline Anomander_Rake

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Fortune favours the brave
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2006, 01:22:56 PM »
I would say as long as you are in the radius of fear you will succumb to fear when you come of berserk....

When you go into berserk you have to attack the nearest enemy model...when the enemy is killed berserk will end...and you will be in fear again... ;)

The question is on how many actions will you have? As you are already succumbed to fear, you will have one action. Will berserk give you two actions? I don't think so...

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake
It's better to be silent and thought the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Offline Nikodemus

  • Journeyman
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2006, 01:23:39 PM »
Quote
I would say that the rules allow you to go Berserk if affected by Fear, but I would like to hear what Wedge and Southpaw have to say.

We are in complete agreement here, please reread my post.

But you may not charge the fear inducing model, not even by going berserk, you still suffer from the restrictments of fear, even while being berserk it does not remove your fear counter...




Offline Anomander_Rake

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Fortune favours the brave
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2006, 01:31:42 PM »
But you may not charge the fear inducing model, not even by going berserk, you still suffer from the restrictments of fear, even while being berserk it does not remove your fear counter...

I disagree, I think the fear counter will be abrogated as long as you are in berserker rage. After that you have to check if the effects and rules of fear still apply...
It's better to be silent and thought the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Offline chribu

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Karma: +19/-0
  • Keeping track of all the answers
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2006, 01:33:32 PM »
OT: i keep reading posts to learn how to play warzone, through "show unread posts since last visit", get all confused, then realize i'm in the chronopia section and not warzone!! why do they have to have similar rules... lol!  ;D

sorry for the OT ;)

Offline Anomander_Rake

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Fortune favours the brave
Re: Berserk & Fear Question
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2006, 01:42:04 PM »
To bring it into focus; what happens when the fear causing model comes within four inches of the unit with berserk and they fail the fear check, because they're not berserk yet?

OK, there are some possible moves for you...
1) you use an action to reroll the fearcheck
2) you move your troops out of the radius of fear (with the result that you are no longer succumbed to fear)
3) you attack another model within you charging distance
4) you attack an enemey model already in cc with you
5) you are a missile unit...you shoot at the fear causing model or any other model within 12" inch...
6) you go into berserk and charge the nearest model (perhaps it is the fear-causer)

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake

hmmm...are there more ways? I don't think so...
It's better to be silent and thought the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.