Author Topic: WW2 Warzone!  (Read 8285 times)

Offline Gallagher_Standard_Barer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
  • Karma: +17/-1
WW2 Warzone!
« on: December 25, 2008, 10:21:49 PM »
So I've been looking for a set of WW2 skirmish level minis game.  I know of Patrol, and Disposable heroes, but I thought I might take a shot at adapting Warzone for WW2 skirmish gaming.

I haven't put much down on paper yet but I was curious what the community would think about this potential project?  has anyone tried something similar?  What pitfalls to you see that I should try to sidestep.

Obiviously I forsee concerns with properly valuating the units and assigning point costs.  What else?

Offline Sylvas

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Midwest Crusader
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2008, 04:58:28 AM »
I've always thought that the warzone rules would make an excellent mechanic for a WW2 rules set, adding a level of tactic thinking that is missing from most of the sets that I know of, with the exception of the Arc of Fire rules set (which can be hard to find even though it is a current set)...

as for points, you could set it up like this: Grunt troops for each of the major forces are already taken care of, since there are stats for Capitol LI (American GIs), Bauhaus Ducal Militia (German Wehrmacht), Mishima Ashigaru (Japanese, just improve the Yari Shogun to a regular Shogun), and Imperial Regulars (British Tommies)...for the more elite level troops, like American Airborne, German SS and the like, you'll just have to find a close relevancy in the existing elites for the appropriate corporate army...

all you really have to do is "create" a Soviet list...

B...
eBay name: sylvas1970

Offline BD Ford

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2008, 05:17:56 AM »


all you really have to do is "create" a Soviet list...

B...

TOE Sons of Rasputin?

BD

Offline Archer

  • Board Member
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • Karma: +64/-2
  • Warzone General extrodinare based in Reading, PA
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 07:24:34 AM »
Hmmmm.....  Sounds like it would work.  Some thoughts...

American Army

BAR: Cap Light MG with following changes-  +2 points for a bipod.  For one action, can deploy bipod against cover or while on ground to shift all Range bands one to the right.
Thompson troops: Use Interceptor stats from Imperial
American Airborne: Use Stats for HI but weapons as regular infantry.  Treat as grunts with Resolve 2
American Marines: As Capitol HI but give extra BAR specialist  Resolve 2
American Rangers: As Capitol HI but armed as Infantry.  SMG troops are specialists. Resolve 3

HMG teams- treat as appropriate unit but rules for use as Militia Support MG

Germans
Fallshimjager: Dragoon stats.  Treat FG 42 as MG50.  two per squad and same rule for bipod as above for BAR
Panzergrenadiers: Hussars  Weapons as noted
All Mg teams treat as Militia team but with appropriate units

Imperial
Royal Marines: Trenchers
Royal Commandos (stens), Trenchers but max unit size of 6.  Sten stats as car-24

Brengun as Intruder but Dmg 11
Piat: Grenade Launcher stats but Anti-Tank.  AV2 Dmg 12

Bren Carrier: Transports up to 8 troops.  Mounted Brengun  two crew, open topped,  Mv 5, AR 22 Wds 3/1.  Snipers may pick off driver/gunner with double aim action and a -2 penalty.

Open topped allows men carried to shoot out.  They Suffer movement penalties for firing

Japanese I am not sure about... but the Jap Marines are hardcore tough (high LDR and CC)
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y

Offline MadBrad

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
  • Karma: +52/-0
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2008, 08:06:50 AM »
Here are some genearal thoughts in no particular order:

The most basic observation is that WW2 troopers did not wear armor.   So, you could actually just assign a straight armor value to all troops.  10 makes sense to me, as even if you get hit by a bullet or piece of shrapnel, there is a fair chance it will it will just wing the soldier.  However, except for the occasional flak vest, there is not real difference between a bullet hitting any solder from any nation involved in WW2. 

Ranges in skirmish games can get kinda weird.  If you try to come up with a consistent scale, any rifle or assault rifle can probably fire across the table.  Even a pistol with a range of 100 yards can shoot a pretty good way on a larger scenario table. 

Morale, combat values and special abilities are the key to differentiating the different armies. 

German troops should have good morale.
Japanese troops would have good morale and infiltrate,  but lower RC (supply was always an issue, and Japanese LMG and rifles were not the best quality).   
Italian troops would have lower morale and lower RC.
US troops should have RC bumped to simulate superior supply. 
British troops should have a straight baseline (I consider the brits to have good overall training, equipment and doctrine - so they get to be the baseline)
Russians should have lower morale and lower rc to reflect poor training and doctorine. They should also be cheap!   

These values would need to be changed based on what period of the war the skirmish takes place in.  For instance, early war Germans are very tough.  The Poles, French, and Russians were simply not well trained for the new style of warfare, and should be penalized.    However, during the late war, the German troops increasingly were less prepared, and supply issued began to reduce their combat value.  US troops in '43 were not well prepared, and probably need a lower morale.  However, as US troops began to get experience in '44 and '45, their combat values and good supply made them very effective. 

Close Combat is another value that could be the same for all troops, but give a bonus to elites, jungle trained troops, or "desperation" situations (such as Russian troops in Stalingrad). 

Squad specialists should be very limited in number.  Light and Medium machine guns are freakin' deadly, and more than one per squad is going to make the scenario imbalanced.  Snipers are individuals and not squad linked. 

Hope those ideas give you some ideas to work with. 



Cybertronic - Superior by design

E-Bay Handle: bradthemad

Offline joshuaslater

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3684
  • Karma: +115/-4
  • Homebase: Philadelphia, PA
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2008, 08:18:56 AM »
I agree with you about the armor.  There was no real body armor in WW2 equivalent to the armor worn by our Warzone models.  Also, rates of fire for the M1 were greater than other rifles of the era, and things like enfillading fire are not taken into account from the UWZ ruleset.

Somethin' to think on.
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline DogOWar

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Karma: +35/-0
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2008, 03:32:13 PM »
I could finaly have a use for all those army men I've been saving back since I was a kid. ;D
Its not the dog in the fight, its the fight in the dog!

ebay "handle": irishdog143

Offline joshuaslater

  • Board Member
  • Administrator
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3684
  • Karma: +115/-4
  • Homebase: Philadelphia, PA
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2008, 04:24:57 PM »
I wonder if I've still got some of that stuff in my parents basement.  My mom held on to that stuff for her grandkids.  I had the "Guns of Navarone" set, with the huge plastic cliffside gun emplacements, and tons of plastics for the Germans and 'mericans.  I always thought that the British took out those guns, but right now I'm just thinking of grabbing my old playset for terrain for Chrono/Warzone. 

'Still playing at toy soldiers after all these years.  Pathetic.
May the Dark Lords of Lead-Free Pewter smile kindly upon you.

Homebase: Philadelphia, PA

Offline Manic _Miner

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
  • Karma: +56/-2
    • Four A miniatures
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2008, 04:34:33 PM »
 I used to have sets like those and my son has some now.1.72nd scale around 20mm.He has started to paint a few of them.

Offline Petru5

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 733
  • Karma: +31/-0
  • Keeping eastern KC an UWZ!!!
    • Conn-Man Games blog
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2008, 04:50:32 PM »
1/72 can fortunately be used for 20mm or 25mm gaming, as it is, in reality, 22.4mm.  Having said that, it really depends on the figs used.

I'm in for a WWII version of WZ!  I have plenty of 28mm American and German troops (look for Hour of Glory on the web...awesome game that is infinitely easier for our European posters to attain than us Yanks) I can use!!!
"Game over, man! Game over!"
-Private Hudson

Offline BD Ford

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 05:47:13 PM »
Here are some genearal thoughts in no particular order:


Ranges in skirmish games can get kinda weird.  If you try to come up with a consistent scale, any rifle or assault rifle can probably fire across the table.  Even a pistol with a range of 100 yards can shoot a pretty good way on a larger scenario table. 




I have always considered ranges in games to be "effective combat range" rather than actual firing range capacity. Yes a .303 bullet is lethal at a mile, but you could never actually hit anything with accuracy at that distance. I also have always considered that gaming ranges reflect the combat environment and therefore, effective ranges are somewhat less than when coolly shooting at static targets on a firing range. In combat, people tend to blaze away more than careful aiming - it was said that in WW2 it took 10,000 bullets to kill a man. (Imagine being that man, getting hit by 10,000 bullets? phew...  :D )
Its not as easy to hit a target as people think - TV and movies have given people a totally exaggerated sense of whats doable with a weapon. I personally consider the effective range of the Glock 9mm to be about 30 feet. Several times at the firing range with other security guards, I have seen them MISS the target at this range... and it wasn't even moving! Oi!
This  justification of short tabletop weapon ranges also means, we dont have to hold our games in basketball stadiums.

BD

Offline Gallagher_Standard_Barer

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 260
  • Karma: +17/-1
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2008, 07:02:24 PM »
I have always considered ranges in games to be "effective combat range" rather than actual firing range capacity.

This is a point that I whole heartedly agree with. 

Likewise the point about armor was something that I'd considered.  I'm not sure what I want to do with it.  A constant value seems the best bet, however the recommended 10, seems too low, implying that pretty much every hit will reduce a soldiers combat effectiveness to zero (read: Kill).  Then again that might be accurate, since even a totally suvivable wound would often get a man sent to the rear ASAP.  I'm just not sure it sets the tone I want for the game.  Besides even the Mishamese Faceless get a 13, can't imagine the Damayo outfitting his disgraced suicide soldiers with extra protection.

Another thought I wondered about was how to represent the american advantage of the Semi auto M1 rifle compared to the bolt action Enfield, Nagat, Arisaka, and k98k of the Brits, Soviets, Japanese, and Germans respectively?  Do you think it is significant enough to require variant rules?  If so the simplest answer within the current UWZ framework would be to give it a (x2) attack in PB, but that seems too big an advantage and steps on the toes of SMG and LMG using troops.

Hmmm, here's a somewhat random thought:  What about an Assitant gunner specialist type, with a corresponding special ability, for instance US Army grunts may be limited to 1 BAR man, but could also have an Assitant BAR man, the Assistant Gunner special ability basically dictates that if the BAR man is hit and would be removed from play you can instead remove the Assitant gunner from the board and put the BAR man in his place.  Basically rules to simulate the fact that while the squad only has one LMG it has two people equally capable of using it and if the first goes down the second picks up the weapon.  Gives your specialists some more milage while not threatening game balance with a second MG in the squad.

I agree that some mechanic for Morale, Enfilade fire and Pinning down squads would need to be implemented.  However I believe strongly in using the tools already provided us by the system being adapted.  We have rules for Panicked and Broken, perhaps what we need would be to expand the circumstances under which units test.  Perhaps indirect fire weapons should be given a Dire rating measured from the point of impact to reflect the devastating nature of Artillery, and Mortar barrage on morale.  Also some sort of rule regarding a certain volume of fire requiring a morale test would cover supression fire, though finding a way to do it without adding too much bookkeeping would be a priority.

Most of my own mini's I'd be using for this are 15mm scale, old command descision stuff I bought years ago that I based on pennies.  I think I'll just half all numerical distance values when playing UWZ adapted rules at 15mm.

Offline Archer

  • Board Member
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • Karma: +64/-2
  • Warzone General extrodinare based in Reading, PA
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2008, 05:36:01 PM »
Rof....

Hmmm....  I would think if the Garand user had not moved the previous action, allow x2 rate at Medium Range but give a -1 to hit.  Just a thought.  Rewards but not overpowering.  Or make the bolt action boys able to only fire twice a round.

*shrug*

John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y

Offline Sylvas

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 819
  • Karma: +23/-0
  • Midwest Crusader
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 09:26:09 PM »

Hmmm....  I would think if the Garand user had not moved the previous action, allow x2 rate at Medium Range but give a -1 to hit.  Just a thought.  Rewards but not overpowering.  Or make the bolt action boys able to only fire twice a round.


that makes sense, since the third action, presumably the second action in the models activation would be clearing and reloading the breach...

for ease of bookkeeping, I would think that the BAR SMG would be using the CAR-24 and the Sten would use the Interceptor stats...

as for the armor idea, you could very simply not include the Armor stat line at all, or include an armor stat for special issue armors for elite units...you would probably have to change the range modifiers and the damage stats, using the existing stat lines from the guns as a baseline for the changes...

just a suggestion...

B...
 
eBay name: sylvas1970

Offline Archer

  • Board Member
  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • Karma: +64/-2
  • Warzone General extrodinare based in Reading, PA
Re: WW2 Warzone!
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2008, 05:53:09 AM »
the BAR uses a far heavier round than the Sten (7.62x63mm versus 9x19mm) and has far grater range.

Heavy rifle round versus pistol cartridge.

I could see the following stat lines....

Weapon / Dmg /cc / pb/ sr / md / lg/ ex
BAR  / 11 / -4/+0x2/ +1x2/ 0x2/ -1 / - -
Sten / 9 / -1 / +1x2/ +1x2/ -1 / -- / --  Sidearm weapon

As an aside the Sturmgewerh 44
Stg 44 / 11 / -4/+1x2/ +1x2/ 0x2/ -1 / - -

I think its very close to the BAR in performance- but you could have entire units armed with them which is stupid scary.
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y