Author Topic: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC  (Read 9657 times)

Offline dmcgee1

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The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« on: December 16, 2008, 07:31:05 PM »
I am a huge proponent of the FAQ'd way of doing Ranged Weapons in CC.  John "Archer" Tinney and Jeff "jjdodger" Dodge are not.  This particular issue has given birth to an "argument that won't be resolved anytime soon."

Archer prefers to play it exactly as the rules state:  "Improvised clubs only, CC modifier, ST+0 DM. It is open to abuse any other way."  In part, I agree with him.  My Ilian Templars with Sectioner bayonets do a whopping 17 damage on a charge under the rules of the FAQ.  However, the rest of me hates it when my militia gets jumped by Mirrormen, only able to manage 4 damage against an AR 21 target.  jjdodger advocated John's philosophy, as well.  I almost had Archer swayed, and tried to put the pressure on Jeff.

Fortunately, I am enough of a pain in the ass to keep the argument going; so much so that it actually engaged that little part of Jeff's mind that comes up with wacky ideas to shut me up.  He proposed the following:

"What if we had a weapon called The Improvised Club?"

My brain then perked up. "What?  You're taking all the wind out of my sails - STOP!"

"No, I think this will work.  Give the weapon a basic stat line, say CC 0  DM ST+2, same as a Bowie Combat Knife.  That way, you can put a bayonet on it, remove the horrible CC modifier that rifles get by, in effect, turning the weapon into a Melee Weapon, and do decent DM in CC."

"Let me get this straight; you are prosing a rule that makes sense, is not overpowering, yet gives shooty troops a fighting chance in CC, and appeases all sides of the argument?  I like it (while being secretly envious that I didn't thik of it)."

"Good, type it up and present it to the FAQ Team."

"Yes, sir, Mr. Dodge, sir, right away!"

Please, consider the following:

p. 125
20.2 - TWO-HANDED WEAPONS

    This weapon stat Line is used for any model that wishes to use its weapon in CC as a melee weapon.  The weapon must be capable of being used in CC (cannot have a "--" CC modifier).  Flechette weapons may be used as Ad Hoc Weapons in CC.

    Ad Hoc Weapon in CC
    (concussive)
    CC    PB    SR    MR    LR     ER        DM
     0     --    --    --     --    --      ST+2
    Special Rules
    Natural Attack. Bayonets mounted on Ad
    Hoc weapons increase CC and DM as
    written and add (slashing) to the waepon's
    profile; -1 CC for each additional Load Out.

p. 134 
    Scythe of Semai HMG
    (ballistic)
    CC    PB      SR     MR    LR     ER         DM
     0   3(x3)  1(x2)  1      -2     --     13(ST+2)
    Special Rules
    Sectioner Bayonet (slashing).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:33:45 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

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Offline Dragon62

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 08:40:04 PM »
I have no problem with the ST +2 for AD HOC weapon use. I have 3 clairafication questions in case i'am reading yhis wrong. 1st is Flechette weapons may be used as AD HOC a new rule since it does'nt say that on page 125. 2nd If all FW's can be used as AD HOC and they all have CC(--) then why not allow all weapons with CC(--) to be used as AD HOC . 3rd Does the special rule under AD HOC allow bayonets to be mounted onto FW's since none have load-outs?   ;)
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 03:45:54 AM »
1. Yes, as they are, roughly, the size of pistols, rifles and HMGs.
2. This was instituted because Flechette weapons are roughly the same size as pistols, rifles and HMGs, and Dodge said, "Cana shotgun be used like a rifle in CC?"
3. No, only weapons that can take loads outs are allowed to mount bayonets.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 03:49:53 AM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Archer

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 04:12:46 AM »
1. Yes, as they are, roughly, the size of pistols, rifles and HMGs.
2. This was instituted because Flechette weapons are roughly the same size as pistols, rifles and HMGs, and Dodge said, "Cana shotgun be used like a rifle in CC?"
3. No, only weapons that can take loads outs are allowed to mount bayonets.

Point one is something to make me happy, I think
Point two is a supporting statement to point one.
Point 3 is the big one on this.

btw- Shotpistols are listed as sidearms; I believe that's why I thought what I thought about *that* weapon

And for what it's worth, I could live with this if approved though there are some weapons out there that just plan suck for any use in CC like the gatling gun mg's
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 02:40:39 PM »
Point one is something to make me happy, I think

Yeah, it was (Jeff, just let him think that)...Actually, it just made sense.

And for what it's worth, I could live with this if approved though there are some weapons out there that just plan suck for any use in CC like the gatling gun mg's

Hence, their incredibly bad CC modifiers for shooting, though I would have no problem saying that HMGs and larger are -1 CC when used as a melee weapon.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 04:02:23 PM »
basically you make all weapons to CC+0 & S+2??

yes, why not..
even pistols have S8..

i would try not to introduce to many rules...

just go with the CC+0 & S+2 for anything ~rilfe (-> shotgun, flamethrower?).
Add bayonet bonus
forget about -1 for next attacement
forget about -1 cc for big weapons (maybe the gunner does just use a red-glowing used barrel and not the whole gun?)
allow handguns in CC (or are all allowed anyway?)

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 06:16:38 PM »
basically you make all weapons to CC+0 & S+2??

No.  Only ad hoc weapons.  Instead of trying to shoot, hit your enemy with your gun.


just go with the CC+0 & S+2 for anything ~rilfe (-> shotgun, flamethrower?).

Shotgun - yes (same size as a rifle).  Flamer - no (No CC mod, and is pretty big; we had to draw a line somewhere)


Add bayonet bonus

We didn't remove it.


forget about -1 for next attacement

No.  Each Load Out on a weapon makes it bulkier, and less able to be effectively used as a melee weapon.


forget about -1 cc for big weapons (maybe the gunner does just use a red-glowing used barrel and not the whole gun?)

See above.


allow handguns in CC (or are all allowed anyway?)

We have, they are, and, when the CC mod is already 0 or a positive number, why would you not shoot it?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline warzoneD

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 06:53:45 PM »
Will the bayonets add to the +2 Dam or replace it?

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 07:17:34 PM »
Bayonets will work as they are designed - they will add to Melee Damage.

Therefore, if your Militia (CC 7, ST 4) swings its rifle in CC with an attached Bladed Bayonet (+1 CC, +1 DAM), your Militia will have a CC score of 8 (7 + 1) and a DM of 7 (4 + 2 + 1).  A Piercing Bayonet yields a CC score of 9, DM 6, while the Sawtooth gives us CC 7, DM 8.

Clear it up?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Caronte

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2008, 05:49:57 AM »
Hey, I like the idea a lot!!

Otherwise:
p. 134 
    Scythe of Semai HMG
    (ballistic)
    CC    PB      SR     MR    LR     ER         DM
     0   3(x3)  1(x2)  1      -2     --     13(ST+2)
    Special Rules
    Sectioner Bayonet (slashing).
Now we only need the stats for the Hindenburg LFT and the Carcass GL ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Archer

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2008, 06:13:38 AM »

Now we only need the stats for the Hindenburg LFT and the Carcass GL ;D ;D ;D

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2008, 03:17:40 PM »
Now we only need the stats for the Hindenburg LFT and the Carcass GL ;D ;D ;D

They cannot be used as ad hoc melee weapons, in this incarnation of the rules.  What were they like in 1st and/or 2nd edition?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline luckyone

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 05:56:56 PM »
I think this is a great idea and works for all sides of the argument.
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Offline joshuaslater

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2008, 09:18:41 AM »
This is what I posted in the FAQ thread:

Sounds cool.  If you are in CC with someone with a rifle, the whole idea is to negate their ability to shoot you.  You want to be in close, and gain control of the weapon, or negate their ability to shoot.  I think Rifle toting guys should have to make a break test with an action to move an inch away and be able to shoot.  Otherwise, it's clubbing or bayoneting.

The peril of shooting in, or into CC is also not reflected in Warzone.  Bullets that strike home often ricochet out and hit your own troops in situations like a scrum.  This was the reason that trench knives, bayonets, sharpened shovels and the like were so favored in World War I. 

I've been reading a lot about trench warfare lately so that's why I'm on this.

I don't think the game needs to get bogged down in more rules, so cleaning up what you can or can't do with a gun in CC is a good idea.  I'll defer to the people who play Warzone regularly and have even read the rules.   ;D

I've no idea how this would be reflected in the UWZ mechanic, or if it should even be considered, but it's just on my mind.
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Offline Archer

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Re: The Dodger Rule of Ranged Weapons in CC
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 09:46:52 AM »
This is what I posted in the FAQ thread:

Sounds cool.  If you are in CC with someone with a rifle, the whole idea is to negate their ability to shoot you.  You want to be in close, and gain control of the weapon, or negate their ability to shoot.  I think Rifle toting guys should have to make a break test with an action to move an inch away and be able to shoot.  Otherwise, it's clubbing or bayoneting.

The peril of shooting in, or into CC is also not reflected in Warzone.  Bullets that strike home often ricochet out and hit your own troops in situations like a scrum.  This was the reason that trench knives, bayonets, sharpened shovels and the like were so favored in World War I. 

I've been reading a lot about trench warfare lately so that's why I'm on this.

I've no idea how this would be reflected in the UWZ mechanic, or if it should even be considered, but it's just on my mind.


Thanks josh for stating a better reasoning for my distaste for rifle shooting in CC.
John "Archer" Tinney

"Ready?"
"Why do your people always ask if someone is ready, just before you do something massively unwise?"
"Tradition."

- Jeffrey Sinclair and Delenn, Babylon 5: "War Without End, Part One" y