Squad buildup question

[Ceowulf]

Got a small nut to crack guys , here goes :

In the errata it says that the number of specialists in a squad is 1/4 in grunt and 1/3 in specialist
And that if a Squad Leader is requierd he counts to the total numbers requierd squad members.

So a normal grunt squad can have 3 specialsist
4-12 + 3 specialists, 15 total models in that group

Then Elit at 4-8 can have 2 specialists.

OR

Is the squad build up more thought to be like in 2nd editions mars/venus books? That the max total models in a squad is 4-14 and 4-8?
If so then both elit and grunt can have 2 specialists each .... but some squads stat that then can have up to 3 HMG/LMG for each squad ...

Or is it that like abow (max number of models is 4-8 , 4-12) that the specialists do count towards the new specialists to? Then a grunt squad of 12 are 1 leader, 3 spec and 8 troopers? And elite 1 leader, 2 spec and 5 troopers?

Or is there a few more options that I have missed?


You guys see my dilemma?

/em with a ringside speaker voice I say DEBATE!!

//Cheers

[Archer]

Yeah I see it.

Follow the bouncing Karnophage here  ....  I will be using Capitol for my examples...


Grunt units may have 1 specialist per 4 NON-specialists.

  So a unit of 11 infantry and 1 Sergeant (12 non) may take three specialists of any sort, up to the specialist's limit per squad.  ie: LMG is one per squad so ther ewould only be one of those)

Elite units may take one Specialist per 3 NON-specialists.

  So a unit of 8 rangers and a Sergeant may take 2 LMGs (which rangers are allowed to do) and a Sniper

In theory, the only maximum you may have in a unit is defined by the allowable models of each type in  the squad.  In theory, the maximum MODELS in a grunt unit as you mention is 12+3+1=16.  Thats alot of dudes.... and begging for template weapons.


Sergeants count as a non-specialist for purposes of getting specialists.

Hows that?

[Ceowulf]

That is about how we do it now. 11 troopers, 1 SL and 3 specialists for a huge group. But reading the rules and thinking how they are intended to be used and looking how you built squads in 2nd edition got me thinking ...

[dmcgee1]

Squad Leaders count as non-specialists, for purposes of group composition.  It is a pretty simple equation, and Archer has it right:

Grunts
4 non-specialists per Specialist

Elites
3 non-specialists per Specialist

ex.:  A small squad of Ducal militia may take one specialist:
    6 Troopers (non-spec)
 + 1 Sergeant (non-spec)
    7 Non-Specialists

Per the ratio above, this Grunt Squad may have up to one specialist

ex.:  A medium squad of Romanov Blitzers
    5 Troopers
 + 1 Sergeant
    6 Non-Specs

This squad may have up to two flamethrowers specs!  I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.  Smells like victory!
   

[Ceowulf]

So my first statement is the corrct one then

[dmcgee1]

Not entirely:

ex.:

Large Elite squad
     8 Troopers (non-specs)
  + 1 Sergeant (non-spec)
     9 Non-Specs

This squad can take up to 3 Specialists!



ex.:
Large Grunt squad
   12 Troopers (non-specs)
  + 1 Sergeant (non-spec)
   13 Non-Specs

This squad can take up to 3 Specialists, too!

Does that clear it up?

[Ceowulf]

Not realy, as it states in the errata that if a Squad Leader is requierd he then counts towards the total requierd models in squad, ergo a 4-12 requierment for a grunt squad is 1 leader, 11 troopers and 3 spec
in a elite on the other hand you have 1 leader, 7 troopers and 2 spec.

But if it is as you say then yes, elite can also have 3 spec

This "mess" got me thinking about the squad build up alá 2nd edition mars and venus books, and it got more complicated so that is why I ask here to listen to your thoughts

[Dragon62]

It's ment to be the leader counts toward the total models for the purpose of specialist.

[dmcgee1]

Dragon62 is correct - the Leader model counts toward the total number of models for purposes of figuring out how many specialist a squad may have.  The sergeant (Leader) is a "non-specialist" in the equations, below.

There are squads that have no leader.  These squads are still limited to 4-12 and 4-8 models for grunt squads and elite squads, respectively.  Therefore, Elite leaderless squads would, indeed, be limited to two specialists.

[Ceowulf]

I see, thanks for clearing this up for me 

[Nighthawk]

Isn't it more like this?

Ex: Grunt Squad Specialists
Squad size/Available specialists
1-4          -         1
5-8          -         2
9-12        -         3
13(sgt)    -         4

Meaning when you for instance have 8 troopers and 1 sgt. You get 3 specialists, because you have 9 none specialists.
Or, 4 troopers and 1 sgt, giving you a total of 5 non specialists and therefor 2 specialists.

Or do you need 7 troopers and 1 sgt to get two specialists? Always filling it up on every 4 non specialist?

I have this army building pdf file from the Polish players, where it's explained like my first example. It just made me think.

Here's pdf to every warzone team. including weapons,army building, enhancements etc.

http://liniafrontu.pl/index.php?docid=110 (left click on Listy armii and it will download automatically, 475kb)

[Dragon62]

The answer is no. It's not 1-4 it's 4. You need 4 non-specialist to have 1 specialist. You would have to have 16 non-specislist including sgt to have a 4th specialist. i hope that explains it for you.

[Nighthawk]

Thanks!

[dmcgee1]

Isn't it more like this?

Ex: Grunt Squad Specialists
Squad size/Available specialists
1-4          -         1
5-8          -         2
9-12        -         3
13(sgt)    -         4

More like this:

up to 7 Troopers: make take one Specialist
8 - 11 Troopers: make take up to two Specialists
12-15 Troopers: may take up to three Specilists

Hope that clears it up, further.

[jjdodger]

More like this:

up to 7 Troopers: make take one Specialist
8 - 11 Troopers: make take up to two Specialists
12-15 Troopers: may take up to three Specilists

Hope that clears it up, further.

actually....
1-3    = no specialist
4-7    = 1
8-11  = 2
12-15 = 3

and elites are:
1-2 = no specialist
3-5 = 1
6-8 = 2
9-11 = 3

(yes, there are squads whose minimum  squad size doesnt allow for a spec.. atilla's.. sigh...)