Chameleon vs HOA

[DogOWar]

     Last game we had something come up that I want to make sure of.  A band of Reapers moved into range for a Hail O' Arrows.  Now, Canonball (Stygian) thought that the Reapers Chameleon SA modifier of -6 applied to the HOA.  My argument and Troy's as well was that the modifier only applied to RC roles as stated in the book, as oppposed to a role vs LD, since this was a SA and actually used a template for the attack.
     As you can imagine, Canonball was none to thrilled with this, but was a good sport and went along with it once we explained our reasoning.  Was I correct in this interpretation?  I did a search and didn't find anything to contradict what I thought.

[Dragon62]

The Chameleon SA only applies to RC rolls not LD rolls for purpose of shooting. Hail of Arrows is a LD roll.

[Coil]

Correct! Trust the book.

[joshuaslater]

Yes.  I remember a unit of Dream Warriors getting taken out with the HOA.  Reminds me of "Dodge this." from The Matrix.

[DogOWar]

Well, thats the way I read it, but I remember seeing in the FAQ that Thom at one time posted that a Standard of Concealment affected HOA by reducing the LD by -2.  That made me wonder if iHOA was affected by HOA.  I do not believe it should.  Chameleon is a powerful ability and should have an "Achilles Heel" somewhere. 

I believe the only reason it worked this time is that Canonball thought that Chameleon would affect it, otherwise I don't think he would have let his reptiles in range.

[joshuaslater]

I hear ya Dog.  We play where the Standard affects the LD against HOA, but things like Chamelon, or the Dream Warriors ability do not protect against it.  I'll have to reread the book, as usual  , as I am not the Chronopia know-it-all by a dang sight.  I think Excelsior did an amazing job putting together two completely revised books for these games, but there are times where rules are sketchy, or editing missed something.  I break Thom's balls about this enough already. 

[Southpaw]

Ok. I've done some research on this. Here is the FAQ entry in question:

34) You stated before that the Standard of Concealment helps against Hail of Arrows. In what way exactly? Since the opposing leader just needs LOS to the unit and uses his LD, the penalty to RC does not come into effect at some point. Is the penalty to RC translated as a penalty to LD or DAM?

*** It is translated to the LD score of the Leader making the roll.

Now, admittedly, this opens up a rather large and ambigous can of worms.

If we assume that the above entry is correct and the intent, which we have no reason to believe otherwise, that leads to a very interesting set of situations.

Based upon the above interpreation, it would seem that the LD penalties for Chameleon would transfer to the LD roll for HOA.

Do I agree with that? I am admittiedly torn. Cases for and against have an equal validity.

The similarity between the Standard of Concealment and Chameleon is that they both, in theory, affect the vision of the enemy units, blurring their view and making them less visible.

HOA does not require an RC roll, instead requiring a LD roll from the Leader to correctly judge the placement and direction of the HOA. If the target is not seen as clearly, that placement, even for a large volley of arrows like HOA, becomes more difficult, and potentially less effective.

This, I believe, was the intent behind the FAQ ruling as stated. Which is why I believe it should apply to Chameleon, as well. As the situation would appear to be identical, just that the Reapers have a built-in, and much more effective Standard of Concealment.

Is Chameleon effective? Without a doubt. However, as, if memory serves, the Reapers are the only models with Chameleon, I don't think it is that much of a problem.

Now whether this creates other situations with other models I do not know, and would require further research.

On the other hand, I tend to be, as most know, a strict literalist when it comes to the rules. Although the above copied FAQ posting does seem to set somewhat of a precedent.

Regardless of whether it should or shouldn't apply, there is always one element which throws just a pinch of randomness into the mix: deviation. HOA deviates if the LD roll is failed, which, depending on the blessing or damnation of the Dice Gods, work for or against either side, as deviations are notoriously fickle.

It could be argued both ways.

SP

[joshuaslater]

Well written.  I see both sides of the question. 

[Wedge]

The problem with allowing special abilities to affect the LD score of the opposing players HOA attempt is that if you allow one special ability or item (chameleon or standard of concealment) you have to allow all similar type detractors from missile attacks.

This makes an equally valid argument for the Firstborn player or Dwarf player to say... when my guys go into shield wall you should get a -6 to your LD roll.

Or the elf player says, What about my dream warriors?

And so on... and so on...

IMHO, all of these SHOULD apply... it makes sense from a "realistic" standpoint.  But for the sake of simplicity and game mechanics I think they shouldn't--it creates too many windows for misinterpretation.  If it says it affects RC then it shouldn't affect LD.  Plain and simple...

  - I think the ole Silverback may have jumped the gun on this one, or misunderstood the question.

[DogOWar]

What really tickled my pickle is another area this might affect.  What about other template weapons like spells? 

If it requires LOS, and a LD roll, you could argue(weakly) that the negative modifier might apply to the spell roll.  Now, I do not agree with this interpretation, but there could be a fairly ehausting discussion on this point, getting nowhere.

I really don't think they should apply, otherwise you could bring up the question of point cost.  These interpretations weren't know before costs were assigned, so should costs be adjusted, and so on.  As has many other threads, this could change alot for alot of armies and should be looked at long and hard to preserve game balance. 

Now, if you and your peeps wnat to do this as a house rule then have at it, and be sure to let us know how it turns out.

Intil I hear from the silverback, I won't be changis this.