Author Topic: here comes another one: HOA  (Read 8832 times)

Offline Anomander_Rake

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here comes another one: HOA
« on: December 12, 2005, 12:51:11 PM »
Ok, I've got another question...and I would like some input on this...

In the Rules about Hail of arrows is stated that a individual can not be target to HOAs...what happens when an Individual is within 4 inch of a warband, and has to be considered as a part of this warband...may I target him now? For example the warband could be standing behind some kind of cover so the individual would be the only part of this warband within LOS...

I would say, when he is (to be considered) part of the warband, you can take him as a target for HOA...does anyone of you have different point of views?

greetz,

Anomander Rake
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Offline FrostWolf

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2005, 12:52:11 AM »
hm. Very Good Question. I remember me that i saw a warhammer 40k Game, where a Kid Hide his Eldar droid lord behind a Avatar. He mean that the rules declare that Individuals (the Avatar) are considered as part of a unit in 6 inch Range, and you cannot target the Individual, you have to target the Unit. but because you cannot see the Droid Lord (because the avatar was very large), you can not target the Unit and both are immun to missle fire. very strange  ;D

The text on page 69 told us that the Individual "is considered part of that Warband for targeting purposes". And i think to target with the HoA counts to this. BUT you can not see the Unit, it is not possible to target it. This was a Question for the Forum Crew, i think.

but in such a situation, i try to think realistic. my own little answer was: No, you cannot, because the unit with the HoA are only aware of the Individual, not the Warband (they can not see them). They only saw the individual, and it was very unrealistic to take a HoA for only a Single model.

But i can be really Wrong  ;D

Offline Anomander_Rake

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2005, 01:19:37 AM »
I don't think that Realism and TableTops go along hand-in-hand... ;)

Think of hide and spot...why should I waste an action with spotting when there is no one around? You only do that, because you (the player) can see the unit and the hide marker...so you decide to make a spot role...in the midst of battle you spot some guys lying flat on the ground with some kind of cover so they can't be seen by the rest of your troops and they (your troops) are already in combat so they won't take a look now...now you say hey I can see you...and tata, the guys will stand up and throw their cover to the ground and say, you're right shoot us...? I don't think so ;)
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Offline Coil

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2005, 02:01:41 AM »
I'm leaning towards a yes here, but I would like to take a peek in the book first to check the exact wording of the rule (something I find helps solve 94.7% of these types of questions).

I'll check my book tonight, but I am sure Southpaw will log on before that. :)

/Andreas - (should get a 2nd rulebook and keep it at the office)

Offline Anomander_Rake

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2005, 02:15:35 AM »
Yes, I'm sure that most questions can be answered by the book...one of the biggest problems in my gaming group is the lack of english skills...

Over the years ( no matter what game I played ) I've found people with basic language skills they learned in school...sometimes rules are easy to understand...sometimes you have to read between the lines to know what the rule-writer has intended to say... those basic skills people will try to translate the rule word by word and this is very unrealistic, as I found that some words have more than a handful of different meanings...so how will they find the correct one? On the other side not all people get it right...one of my friends will allways stick to one sentence in a paragraph of more than ten sentences (if only this one sentence will help him)...

Besides those little problems we have when playing a game based in another language...there are to rules standing against each other...the rules for HOA say you may not use it against Individuals...on the other side the rules for ranged combat say that you can use the Individual for targeting purposes when he is within four inches of the warband...perhaps I read it wrong...

It's better to be silent and thought the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Offline Southpaw

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2005, 02:19:33 AM »
No wonder my ears were burning.... no other reason to be up at 4 in the morning.... :D

As an amazing coincidence, a new player I'm getting into Chronopia and I had a discussion about this exact situation, as it occured in a demo game that I ran for him.

FrostWolf has what I believe to be the key bit of information about this situation. As he correctly stated, an individual within 4" of a Warband is considered part of that Warband for targeting purposes.

The targeting rule for Hail of Arrows states that the Leader of the firing unit must have LOS to...here is the key...*any* model of the target unit....

Since, as we have already established, an individual within 4" is considered part of a Unit for targeting purposes, the archers are perfectly legal in firing a Hail of Arrows on an Individual that happens to be within 4" of a Unit, since he is close enough to be considered part of said Unit.

A bit quirky, I agree, but legal, as the rules currently stand...
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Offline Anomander_Rake

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2005, 02:23:08 AM »
another question for me would be what happens when there is a bunch of Individuals? Let's assume the Horned Ones Warshields...they have RC 10...let those individuals be in cover with shields at maximum range...with their skills they would have no chance to get them...by using their LD and with the right standard and the musical device they could get a LD of 17...and HOA them to hell... ;)

I wanted to post my text, but I will include Southpaw's post...

No wonder my ears were burning.... no other reason to be up at 4 in the morning.... :D

The targeting rule for Hail of Arrows states that the Leader of the firing unit must have LOS to...here is the key...*any* model of the target unit....

Only the early bird will get the worm... ;D or so...I don't know the exact english phrase for this...

I think there are two rules standing against each other...but which one is the superior one? HOA or RC?
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2005, 02:28:04 AM »
Besides those little problems we have when playing a game based in another language...there are to rules standing against each other...the rules for HOA say you may not use it against Individuals...on the other side the rules for ranged combat say that you can use the Individual for targeting purposes when he is within four inches of the warband...perhaps I read it wrong...

Nope, you read it absolutely right. Yes the rules do say that you cannot HOA an Individual, but I see this as not *exactly* doing that, since he is technically considered part of the Warband when within 4".

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Offline Anomander_Rake

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2005, 02:34:52 AM »
OK, not *exactly* means this is something in the gray area?  ;)

I think you earned your coffee for today...or another hour of peaceful sleep...we won't write-say your name for the next few hours...so your ears won't be ringing that loud...on the other side we are a good alarm-clock, at least in the case you wanted to be awake at 0400 hrs... ;D
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2005, 02:45:57 AM »
Nah...I'm up anyway...and always glad to help out....

:)
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Offline Anomander_Rake

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2005, 05:25:52 AM »
I thought a while about this problem and two rules contradicting each other in general...

If there is a hierachy in the rules, the normal rules like Close Combat, Movement, Ranged Combat etc. are the basic level...
All other Rules like Special Abilities or Special Rules stated in the units stats should be higher and therefore apply first...so to make it short...targeting an Individual within 4" of a warband should be permitted...

just my two cents...

Anomander Rake

PS: Southpaw I hope your ears aren't ringing right now... ;)
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2005, 06:21:23 AM »
I agree completely, which is why it is legal as far as I have been able to discern, and have ruled it legal in games past, even when it was me getting Hailed...boy did that suck.... ;D

The targeting rule of being within 4" of a Warband supercedes the normal rules about not being able to HOA an Individual, even though, in your original situation, the Individual was the only model that the firing Unit could see, he is still within 4" of  Warband, and thus counts as part of that Warband for targeting purposes.

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Offline Wolfshade

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2005, 07:30:36 PM »
  Southpaw, I'm not whining or trying to dis your knowledge of the rules, but that doesn't sound right.  If you can't see the actual target unit, how can you target them?  Yeah, I know the 4" rule, but this sounds a little bent. 
Elf, It's good with A-1 too!!!

Offline Southpaw

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2005, 10:43:50 PM »
As far as the rules as they are currently written go,  (unless there has been a change that I am not aware of),  the rules state that an Individual within 4" of a Warband is considered part of that Warband for targeting purposes.

It makes no distinction as to whether you can see any other member of the Warband or not.

So, as this rule states, if an archer unit wishes to Hail of Arrows an enemy Warband, and the only model they can see is an Individual within 4" of said Warband, then by the 4" rule, this shot is legal.

Is it a loophole? Perhaps. But a legal one as far as I'm concerned.

Now the question then becomes, "What is the intent of the rule of such a situation?"

Do I necessarily agree with this situation, no, I don't. As you have said, it wouldn't be a "realistic" situation, in that the archers wouldn't HOA an Individual model, that just so happens to be next to a Warband.

But one could make the same argument for it, in that, in a "realistic" situation, you could see the individual communicating with, or giving orders to, or whatever you may call it, to the Warband he is next to, and the logical choice would be to Hail of Arrows.

You can make an argument for it either way, really, it all depends on how you choose to look at it.

I look at it, as I do with everything, from a purely rules standpoint. And, unless this has changed in an FAQ or another thread, then, as the rules stand, this shot is legal.
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: here comes another one: HOA
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2005, 10:52:59 PM »
If all else fails, simply roll the Peacemaker, with the high roll choosing yes or no on the shot.

Miniature games are, by nature, a finite animal. That is to say that it deals with physical pieces on a physical playing field. No rules system can cover every possible situation, that would be simply impossible.

There will always be situations like this, when things seem, and sometimes do, counteract one another. The Peacemaker is the easiest, simplest solution to such a situation, as it keeps the game flowing, and avoids any potential unwanted arguments.

After all, this is little toy pieces we're talking about... heh heh....

*caresses his new Devout Risen Archers in a corner...myyyy precioussssss......*
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