...If I insinuated that you were trying to duck the conversation, ...
ok, ok..
if you hit the dense terrain while derivating..
Further, I have never - never - found Para-deploy to be useless, even in dense terrain.
in our games we only dared to land paradeploy troops in big open spots (normally not close to the center of the bf)
not too bad because they where BB, but with shocktroops (no AR) and dense terrain i see many die in a splat..
Very rarely do I put my pieces behind meat-shields. That may be a tactical issue, not a character issue.
why? of course troops die faster, but chars will mostly have only 2-3 wounds (or do you only play 4w chars?)..
if they stand out i would be happy to have some HI shoot at them.
(e.g. 5 HI make ~6 hits, may well be 2-3 wounds..)
Plus, that squad of HI would cost 124 PC, and, at most, a LD of 10 - not 17.
For those PC, an Ilian force could have 8 Children and a Scion or 11 more PC, a squad of Templars with a Voidbringer.
well, chars are a little more point effective that troops, i feel (like some supports).
i felt it fair, but you are right, not pointwise to compare him to some 6 HI..
the higher LD is also typical for chars. his is really high, true.
18"? Unless fighting in terrain that limits visibility, MR is out to 24".
i see a problem..
we always played, my mistake, with cc-6-12-18-24 range band...
since the table (or real used battlefield) was 48´ deep, minus the depoyment zone and quite some terrain we mostly had the firs encounters happen between 12-18´
-> for "us" MR, what is right. but IF one could manage to get someone at >18´ it was good.
=> well, i will need to think about (&discuss with friends) about yet another houserule.
most likely it will have few effect, but it weakens vahl´dred to some extend!
regarless of whether he usd the Vasa. How does this "negate" the Chains of Ilian?
in this way: he does not want to be in CC because the vasa is better.
the chains, wich costs points, will only help in an already suboptimum situation.
If he finds himself in CC, not only do they grant him Combat Reflexes: 2, but they prevent models from Breaking Away. Models charging him would not get a bonus -
all good bonus, but e.g. the no-break-away: exept in situations where you are in CC with a HMG who would want to break away?
most chars or troops have a CC option that makes the sacrifice of a break-away action ineffective.. and i think you will find him in CC with at least reasonable good CC troops, i think..
-> bad CC troops would not charge him, and he is better off shooting them
i agree, he is good in CC, but the point is simply that shooting is better for him and so the CC boni(costs) put him in the ineffective char direction.
since he _is_ a char, certain boni are there, of course, like (very) high LD
Hec an Channel (selecting one Ilian Power, such as Void Gate
really ??
Really. On a side note, I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic of my tactical choice to use Void Gate, or if you, truly, dd not know Void Gate could be used.
thank you for this feed back..
thruth is, i did not cosider this spells to be really worth the risk & fuss.
a ~80 p hmg-model should move and then start to shoot with his big gun.
to spend turns to try to transport troops (and just 1 squad, that also needs to wait for the gate) seemed to weak for me indeed..
(if i understand: 1.cast, 2. go through, 3. give oders? anyway, all remaining char actions are lost, it states)
the thing is, a 80 p char and a ~150+ P unit needs to hope the casting works to move 14 inches.
if they just move they can move 9´
to move through terrain _is_ good.
but what with the rest of the army? ~1/4 of the army is away, and will hopefully reach their target in no more than 1 round.. but if not they are unavalible..
Dark Lightning, etc
Unless other models that can be affected by Dark Lightning due to its arcing nature are out of LOS of the Vasa - someties, it's nice to be able to go around corners after the next model.
good point!
@dark lightning+illian nep pw 16:
=> to-cast+13 dam12 range16 & jumping (lets say 3 hits total..)
vahl has RC 13 and vasa does dam13 at 24´(!!) and at 12´ 13*2
=> vahl ~4 dam 13 hits / turn
=> nepharite ~5 dam12-10 hits / turn
i must conclude, this comarison makes the dark lightning quite ok..
i think i did not consider enough that she counld use it 4 times / round or 2*with concentrate, what is nice...
good, but not awsome.. i think quite cheap if you consider the many special rules + PW scores.
If cheap = good for the points, then yu actually help me prove my point of his awesomeness - 
.
well, i never wanted to say that he is bad!
but compared to 2 AM captains (6 A, same gun) or 3 AR chars he is not superior.
It only takes 1 AC to maintain the Dimensional Storm, leaving 3 AC's to use how he sees fit.
i was under the impression that he can´t move.. -> i don´t have to much praxis! i remember many details (flamer-thread) but not all....
Am I, truly, telling you things that you do not know, or are you attempting to use sarcasm to make your point?
no. i really only try to use statistical-guesses..
in this case, i thought the case for the storm was, that you could not also casts 3 DL / round...
i will try the magic out, for sure.. question is only, look at vahl or vahl+nepharite if to consider his strengh...
Void Slayer Battle Sword (12 DM, AV: 2, may Sweep, residual versus mortal models - a Vulkan Killer!)
...
afraid to consider your opinion of strong.
well the point is, the sword is strong, but the vasa makes, at PB RC 15 * 3 dam 13...
One word - sweep.
no range (pretorian behemoth), with his MV3 this makes it a passive ability.
only if HE gets swarmed it will help (but then, its good, of course, for it´s points..)
-> in theory, only if the enemy thinks the swarming will win nevertheless, a swarming will happen!
you can cram expensive chars in a small list but not many cheap chars..
So this discussion would then be about the rules for army construction being "bad?" I am disappointed.
no, not at all ?? i just spoke about the consequences of the system.
that i don´t like the current system (mostly support-choise) i discussed before, but not now.
also, why beeing disapointed to discuss the army construction system ??
i just said that, since the chars are linked to squads, in small forces like 750 P you can cram more "characters" into the army if your army list includes high cost (=strong) characters.
armies which only have medium chars, like capitol, can´t.
(e.g.3*4+1+1templers+razide+karak, vahl, neph ~750P,
~240 char points)
with capitol
4* HI cap+4*4+1+1 HI+2GG = ~750 P,
144 Char points
Thank you for conceding that point.
I would like to see you try our way (read: the book's suggested way) of playing, and see if your opinion does not change. Take a look at the boards on which we play. There are no wide open areas (...).
i have seen the tables of the tschechisch (?) tables and must say, that is way to open.
we play with much more terrain and, as i know now, with a little bit restricted shooting
future battle reports will enighten the terrain-difference-question.
@vahl
he is good value. but not overly strong.
the smaller the game, the stronger he gets
if you charge him, you should know what you are doing!
cu´s
