Author Topic: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?  (Read 8258 times)

Offline Dr. Nick

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Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« on: January 05, 2008, 01:48:57 PM »
In another thread, perhaps.

->

Vahl'Dredd has an HMG, a sword and Chains of Ilian (not to mention 4 WD, counting his lackey) and can take 1 Power.
The Nepharite has a sword that does residual damage wersus mortals, Chains of Ilian and a Pistol - plus it has 4 AC, 4 WD and can take 3 Powers.
Do I need to explain further?
yes please, because:

1. the chains are nice, but CC. vahl better shoots
2. residual is only agains 2+ W models. good, but not super



Vahl + Nehaprite ~ 155 P (incl. spells)

=> ~ 4 Infantry Major with LS / MdT (->RC 12)

=> 12 shots -> 7 hits -> 3 W

!!! of course, in dense terrain the HMG is better, but then again, there are better short distance chars..
the bad guys have only ~MR (vahl good only SR) and MV3


==> the thing is, that _imho_ the chars with may special effects are less effective than pure shooters


@magic: what spells do you think are worth it?
the Dark Lightning is ok, but is it worth ~75 P?


===> don´t get me wrong, vahl is pritty nice, but so much devasting not, imho..
in my games these guys (karak, vahl) mostly died quite quick without too much impact

(getting close to a squad, killing some guys, getting it back with the HMG or hard char close).
(collecting wounds due to snipers and later catiching the final damage)
(rushed by a vehicle and blasted in 1 activation (often))

i prefer, until now, many small shooters

cu´s

p.s.
3+1hmg masch MkII cost about the same as these guys.. MV 4 + enhanced charge will bring them into CC very quick.
since each of the two will most likely not destroy 1 mkII in just one activation the electro shild may also help a lot (2 times 50%).
not to forget, if they finish one, the HMG with RC efficiently 14*3 dam 13 will press them hard after they did..


** removed the post in the other thread **
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Offline masherking

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2008, 03:36:54 PM »

1. the chains are nice, but CC. vahl better shoots
2. residual is only agains 2+ W models. good, but not super

Yes but he can do both if he wants to. ( not all spells are for shooting.

I will say this about if "residual" being super or not. Will you use it all the time...no, but when you do its one of things your so glad you have. So at least for me its very nice selling point and worth the points.



Quote
Vahl + Nehaprite ~ 155 P (incl. spells)

=> ~ 4 Infantry Major with LS / MdT (->RC 12)

=> 12 shots -> 7 hits -> 3 W

!!! of course, in dense terrain the HMG is better, but then again, there are better short distance chars..
the bad guys have only ~MR (vahl good only SR) and MV3

hes also Commander, can take void gate ( at that point MV3 is moot), has 23AR and 3 wounds (this is big).
He's a squad on to himself but when in a tight spot can command another squad to take actions along with him and if that wasnt enough he can always void gate.

Quote
==> the thing is, that _imho_ the chars with may special effects are less effective than pure shooters

To a degree I really agree with you. In Warzone it pays to have alot guns shooting. But some special effects are just too useful ( and honestly plain fun) Ex: Voice of Demnogonis's whispered revelations and Sinstress Salandria's sinster gaze are two that come to mind. Both in past games have proven to be very useful

Quote
@magic: what spells do you think are worth it?
the Dark Lightning is ok, but is it worth ~75 P?

is Dark lighting worth it....any spell that has real chance of killing more then one model pre action is worth it.
As long as the caster has got a good enough PW (14 or higher)

Quote
===> don´t get me wrong, vahl is pritty nice, but so much devasting not, imho..
in my games these guys (karak, vahl) mostly died quite quick without too much impact

Is he worth the points, sure but as with any character in the game gotta use them smart to get your points worth out of them.

Quote

p.s.
3+1hmg masch MkII cost about the same as these guys.. MV 4 + enhanced charge will bring them into CC very quick.

As archer discovered in our last game rushing quicky in cc is nice but to me it just means you get into spell range that much quicker  :P


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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2008, 08:50:15 PM »
Nick, while I respect your opinions, I have to bring up my observance of the boards upon which Europeans tend to play.  Of the boards that i have seen in pictures of tournaments, the majority contain little to no intervening terrain, and are, for the most part, target ranges suited towards heavily gunned forces.

The game is designed to be played in medium to heavy terrain with environmental rules.  Becuase of the propensity to use very little terrain, I have seen the European players complain that the Vulkan is too tough, and that Paradeploy is too limiting.

That said, here is why I have the opinion of Vahl.

Vahl'Dredd is a beast.  He has a lackey, which gives him an additional WD (for a total of 4), +2 LD (total LD 17!) and an AR of 23.  He has staying power, and will not die easily unless you are making him a target.  He can reach out to MR with the Vasa Heavy Machinegun, doing DM 13, with even more shots at SR and PB - a truly powerful weapon as ranged weapons go.  His sword is the Voidbringer Battle Sword - DM 15 in a charge, and AV: 3 - can you say, "can opener?"  Hec an Channel (selecting one Ilian Power, such as Void Gate, Dark Lightning, etc.), is a Force Commander, and has the Chains of Ilian, preventing enemies from gaining a charge bonus and from breaking from CC, not to mention imparting Close Combat: 2 to the wearer.  Vahl whoops a fair amount of tail in CC.  Alone, he is awesome.

Add a Nepharite, and look out!  4 AC!  3 Powers (Dark Lightning, Void Gate, Dimensional Storm, etc.), may Channel, Void Slayer Battle Sword (12 DM, AV: 2, may Sweep, residual versus mortal models - a Vulkan Killer!), AR 22, 4 WD, and the above-mentioned Chains of Ilian.  If you think that this is weak, I am afraid to consider your opinion of strong.

I added Karak to the force, and for 750 PC, had a lot of fun, andwon even after I completely forgot to bring Vahl's lackey into the game (and its benefits).

It is my opinion that your opinion is a bit clouded due to the type of terrain on which you may be used to playing.  I would like to see you try our way (read: the book's suggested way) of playing, and see if your opinion does not change.  Take a look at the boards on which we play.  There are no wide open areas.  If Sniper's want to find fire lanes and killing zones, they have to look for them, and move to them.  Very seldom does a sniiper find itself deployed in an ideal location from the start of the game, in our games.  Very seldom will a Vulkan squad find itself covered by a 1/2" high wall, covering half the board with withering firepower (at least not withoout being on a desert board where their weapons stands a large chance of jamming every few rolls).

Counterpoint(s)?
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Spagg

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2008, 10:28:39 PM »
I agree Vahl is a great choice in an army.

The other thing I like about him is that he looks really cool on the table!!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2008, 10:53:30 PM »
I agree Vahl is a great choice in an army.

The other thing I like about him is that he looks really cool on the table!!

I concur - especially with his little lackey running around (I use the sword-holding Child of Ilian from the old Hellfire Cart model).
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline warzoneD

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 12:18:44 AM »
Oooh, good choice!

I have a few of those lil' bubbas lying around.

Offline Coil

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2008, 03:50:04 AM »
Very good summary Dave.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2008, 02:54:26 PM »
Thanks, Andreas.  I await Nick's reply.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline DogOWar

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2008, 09:34:36 PM »
Although I have yet to play UWZ.  My favorite army (reading the book) is Illian.  I love the look and the abilities of Val and Karak.
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2008, 07:56:30 AM »
hi,

thanks for the reply, i will write more if i have more time, it´s quite buisy in the moment..

cu´s
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2008, 08:29:20 AM »
I think all of Illian's Individuals are great, but just 1 point about the Lackey he doesn't confer an extra wound vs. spells/powers. ;)
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2008, 02:52:22 PM »
I knew that, Phil.  I just didn't mention it as it is very seldom that I take a Dark Legion force against another.  Very few Corporate powers.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2008, 03:51:39 PM »
Dave a question about the Lackey. If attacked by a FT Templete is the Lackey auto destroyed since he has no save and would Vahl be forced to still have to make a save vs. the attack?
Define Irony-A bunch of idiots dancing around on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash.

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 04:03:54 PM »
The lackey is equipment - not another model, like a bodyguard.  Therefore, Vahl still gets the extra wound against that one.

Once the lackey is lost, so are its accompanying benefits.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Why is Vahl´Dread + generic Nepharite very good?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2008, 02:24:14 PM »
Nk, I am still awaiting your reply.  You wanted me to expound on my opinion, and I did.  I am truly interested in hearing your rebuttal.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!