Author Topic: Activation of a squad inside a transport  (Read 28790 times)

Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2008, 02:03:11 PM »
When you take page 40 and page 92 it doesn't support the way your reading pages 90-91 also it doesn't take 3 Turns to go 18 inches it takes 3 Actions inwhich you can also fire its weapons. On Turn 2 action 1 disembark use all disembarking troop actions and the APC still its actions it doesnt take 3 turns to disembark the squad as Lopis states. The way its written as long as you disembark on action 1 or 2 you can get everyone out. If you disembark on action 2 all you can do is exit and move up to your normal move to get out of the way since they only would have 2 actions to use.
Phil
You are correct IF you start the units in the transport.

If the units are not started in the transport, it takes at least 2 turns to mount the transport move 18" and dismount because by your interpretation if the transport hasnt activated before the troops get in then it CANT move more than 1 action because the "crew" inside has spent 2 to get there < its interesting if some needed 3 actions to get there, but thats for later>. Then on the next turn it can move 2 actions if the troops plan to get out because they need 2 actions to get out and out of the way.

And you still keep forgetting the term "passenger unit"  ;D
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2008, 02:13:15 PM »
Your point is moot. Why would you spend Turn 1 loading a squad into the APC when you can start already on board? The Passender Unit ( All models in squad are treated as 1 PU and the PU is treated as Crew as per page 40.)
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2008, 02:22:59 PM »
You are assuming that I want to start them in the transport. Suppose in turn 2 or later I see something I want to take advantage of by moving a squad quickly, Thats where my point is so its not a moot point.

Phil not to seem snippy but you are focusing on one example and not the broad use of the unit. The way you are reading the rules makes it extremely limiting for the transport and for the costs and criteria of getting a transport I dont think that was the intention. You are using a generic rule pg 40 to cover a specialized vehicle with its own rules that are written in the rulebook pg 90 -91< tho they are not as clear as they could be>. Again the terms passenger unit and passenger unit activation seem to me to point to seperate action for the specialized vehicle which is the transport which has its own rules.
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2008, 02:38:51 PM »
I dont think your being snippy at all we just dont see it the same way. Page 40 is a rule on what actions can be taken, but it clearly states the Passenger unit is treated as addition crew. page 90-91 cover vehicles but page 92 disscribes how actions must be used by multi-crewed vehicles. My opinion on this subject is based on all 4 pages not just 2 pages. The APC was really only intended for objective games as per it's fluff.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2008, 03:10:01 PM »
Your view is entirely correct IF the boarded squad is considered crew as pg 40 the general vehicle rules would suggest. Using that page as a guideline then the vehicle would be muliti crewed and page 92 would also be in effect. If they are crew, if the transport is destroyed, they WOULD NOT get a chance to save and they would die just as a vehicles crew do when it is destroyed.
BUT
Pages  90 and 91 which are devoted to TRANSPORTS states that the unit is part of the vehicles complement <websters defination being one that fills up or completes.> just as lumber oil or any other cargo would be part of the complement <cant be targeted seperately from the transport>. In that view, the unit has no actions to use or lose during movement as they are just being carried along. And they have to activate seperately in order to use actions. It also states that they would get a chance to save should the transport be destroyed which CREW do not get.

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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2008, 03:27:43 PM »
Incorrect wording on my part The PU takes actions as addition crewmen as per page 40. They are treated as Crew in the way there actions are used.
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Offline warzoneD

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2008, 04:23:49 PM »

Seems like you're pretty steadfast on maintaining your point of view despite a number of very sound and convincing arguments from a several different players on here.   

And, hey that's fine, I totally get your conviction and respect it, but I agree with PS that this item should be FAQ'd - otherwise I don't see how it can be resolved short of one person saying "I'm right and you're not."  Which I think we can all agree wouldn't be in the nature of this forum or in the best interest of the game.

Cheers

D

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2008, 04:28:50 PM »
I really want to chime in here, but will not, just yet.  I am following the discussion, but am without my book, at the moment.

I love to see the talk and the debate, and commend all involved for keeping it to the point without letting emotion take over.

I will try to remember to chime in tomorrow with my thoughts after having checked the book.
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Offline Topkick

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2008, 09:12:47 PM »
Well I've been following this debate and I have decided to add my opinion to the mix.

When riding in the APC, troops expend actions as if they were part of the crew. Just as you cannot drive, drive, drive and then shoot, shoot, shoot you cannot deploy out of the actions sequence of the vehicle. Basically the vehicle is a unit and the crew are symbiotic components that make the whole function. The basic question is using actions so the best place to get the answer is in the section on using actions.

The rule is stated clearly and in simple terms on page 40, first column, first paragraph of the Vehicles and Using Actions section - In general, when a vehicle is activated, any crew riding within it must expend their actions simultaneously. If the driver uses his first action to drive, any other crewman must spend their first action before the driver can spend his second. If the driver spends his second action before the crew takes their first the unspent actions are are lost, unless a Special Ability declares otherwise. That covers the rules citations in my opinion. As for rewriting the rules just because you don't like them I find it short-sighted with regard to game balance. If troops are allowed to disembark at will with all their actions then the transport becomes overly powerful for it's points. Warzone becomes a vehicle-centric game and the tactics are lost.

Tactically the APC is best used when the driver takes his first action, then the gunner attacks the strongest opponent within firing guidelines and then the troops disembark. Now the Troops use action 2 to move to cover, the gunner fires and the driver puts the vehicle between the troops and harms way. The final action is similar to the second. Optionally the driver always goes first and the troops follow behind using the APC for cover much as the troops in WWII used tanks. Using the APC as a shield allows the troops to move forward under cover and yet break at any point of the turn without getting stuck in a disembarking bottleneck.

The FAQ Team in my opinion is there to correct ambiguity in the rules not to redesign the rules someone dislikes. That being said no one here is held to the FAQ Team's interpretation, my interpretation or anyone elses when playing a simple game with your group. Just come to an agreement beforehand. However if you are playing at a Con or special event respect the ruling of the event organizer or judge. Arguing a point with the guy running the event is pointless and ruins the fun for all the players. If you disagree with something state your objection calmly and abide by his decsion.

In closing the rules in this instance are pretty clear in my opinion. Instead of changing them to fit your tactics try working with them as written and you might discover some new and inventive ways to use the APC in the game.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 09:38:23 PM by Topkick »
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Offline warzoneD

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2008, 10:01:52 PM »
Interesting tactic, and sound sounding, although the last bit of using the vehicle as a shield might not work since--

pg. 92 - "For that reason, models may never use vehicles for purposes of cover." 

Which, while I understand the game balance aspect, given your WWII example, doesn't quite sense--

RE: Rewriting the rules.  I don't think anyone is trying to do that.  It seems to me we are trying to clarify them.  2 camps seem to exist.  Those who hail page 40 and those who hail page 89.

Just my observation--


Offline Topkick

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2008, 10:44:03 PM »
Interesting tactic, and sound sounding, although the last bit of using the vehicle as a shield might not work since--

pg. 92 - "For that reason, models may never use vehicles for purposes of cover." 

Which, while I understand the game balance aspect, given your WWII example, doesn't quite sense--

RE: Rewriting the rules.  I don't think anyone is trying to do that.  It seems to me we are trying to clarify them.  2 camps seem to exist.  Those who hail page 40 and those who hail page 89.

Just my observation--

The only reference I found on page 92 regarding using vehicles as cover, Is the last paragraph of column 1 - "While a trooper may use a vihicle to block an enemy's line of sight, no soldier would be foolish enough to use the vehicle for cover....Blasts that hardly scratch the armor of a vehicle would be very lethal to soldiers hiding behind it. For that reason models may never use vehicles for purposes of cover." I assume this is the statement you are referencing.

All I see is that I chose my words poorly, the tactic is sound. By advancing behind the tank the troops are effectively using it to block Line of Sight. It provides cover in that way but leaves them vulnerable to blast damage. The troops are not claiming hard cover they are merely using the vehicle to block line of sight. Besides as long as the vehicle is closer to the enemy the opposing troops would have to pass a Tac Sense roll to attack them rather than the vehicle.

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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2008, 01:54:31 AM »
If troops are allowed to disembark at will with all their actions then the transport becomes overly powerful for it's points.
well, even if they donīt loose actions to the transport driving (-> having 3 actions after 3 times driving)
they still spend 1 A to disembark, leaving them with 2 actions AND they need 1 action to move away (not to block the door)
(the disembark is not a move action, right?)

-> just 1 shooting action (exept the last guy, who has 2)

hardly to powerful, if you think that a transport costs >100 P and will most likely move & shoot (not getting the +3)
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2008, 05:16:27 AM »
OK, yeah yoiu got it right...
overread the part that the disembarker has to spend the remaining actions before the other models do anything else.

That makes the transport a bit better!

With that if moved as last action in a turn on won initiative it means a rush of 27 inches with a remainig action to shoot. sounds good to me, since the disembarkers are covered by the APC which blasts a little bit away if staying tight or moves in front after all disembarked models spent their actions and blocks LOS for them.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 05:20:21 AM by Lopis »
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Offline warzoneD

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2008, 10:47:41 AM »
Another thought occurred to me last night. 

A few months back there were whispers of a PDF of a vehicle supplement that might possibly be released to the public this year.

Maybe such a document will clarify all this...

D

Offline Lopis

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2008, 11:12:36 AM »
Too late  :o

Now we solved the problem (nearly)  ;D
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