Author Topic: Activation of a squad inside a transport  (Read 25869 times)

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2008, 07:09:11 AM »
Yes you are correct in paragraph 1 ,but if you read page 40 under vehicles and using actions it clearly states Passenger unit takes actions just like an additional crewmember, so on vehicle action 3 if the Passenger unit desides to disembark the 1st model would block the door since he would have no actions left to move away from the opening which is covered on page 90 2.2 last sentence. The Passenger Unit needs at least 2 actions in order to get everyone out. While the 2 units are together they are 1 unit and dont become 2 units until they disembark and activate again at which time they would be 2 seperate units. Takes the way I read it. The book is filled with contradictions we
all know that, but as stated above page 40 clearly states thr Passenger unit is treated as crew hense there actions are taken as crew until disembarked.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 07:21:09 AM »
Just throwing in my viewing point:

I think per the rules the squad is treated as a passenger, thus gainig actions with the crew-activation. All consequernces that result are as written already above a few times.

What I think of it:
It makes transports nearly useless and the fun of fielding them is lost. I like a bit of variability and itīs not easy to get that thing on board so it should be used....

Solutions:

1- Stick to the rules and as above.

2- Stick nearly to the rules. Let it activate with the other crew-members, but forget the thing about the disembarking. Just say it is a move action to disembark. So with the last action the troopers can hop of the transport and be happy to find cover.

3- Let them activate as a separate unit. Ok sounds good and comes near to reality. I personally think it should be done this way, BUT no activation at the end of the vehicles turn..... If its activated the initiative has to rotate again and after that the minis can disembark.

4- as above but activation starts at hte end opf the vehicles activation. No go as far as Iīm concerned. that would disrupt fielding and initiative and balance.

for me itīs the possibilities 2 or 3. If you want to stick near the rules do it as per 2, if you want it more realistic do the 3.

We played it per 4 and it was no killer, but mostly because of the situation and the fielding of the rest of the battlefield. If this would be used proper and concentrated it can be devastating.....
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 09:44:27 AM »
Pg 40 Doesnt make sense because as I stated before a transport wouldnt be able to move until the next activation because the "crew" inside wouldnt have any actions left to do anything.

If page 40 existed by itself I would agree with you but it doesnt. Page 90 specifically goes into detail about use of transports. Page 40 even states see armored personal carries for more details.

But to make sure Im clearly understanding you Phil. Based on page 40 You are saying that it would take 3 turns to get a squad into a transport< 1 trun because transport cannot move because crew has no actions left>, move 18"< crew cannot disembark because their actions were used during the transports movement> and disembark<crew activates, disembarks and transport has only 2 actions left when it activates>? If so that makes transports useless. Using the rules on page 40 takes away activations from both the unit and the transport. I do not beleive that was the intention.

Not knowing the intentions of the writer, but using the rest if the ruleset and the fact that there are several areas that talk about using transports, as a guide, I believe that:

1. A unit spends an action to board a transport.
2. The transport still can activate and use all of its actions ie move, fire ect
2a. end of turn
3. The transported units can disembark the next turn and use their remaining 2 actions
4. The transport can now activate and use its 3 actions
4a. numbers 3 and 4 are interchangeable

I just dont see that making a unit spend 3 activations to move 18" is what a transport was designed to do.


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Offline Lopis

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 10:02:36 AM »
Not only move,

but i think its hidden paratrooping without the fear of hitting hard ground.

If you play it as I said, with activating the passengers with the vehicle and using the disembarking as a m ove action you gain the following:

- movement of 18 inch in COVER of an armor of 24
- moving while shooting with the turret MHMG while doing the 18 inch
- and last but not least in the same turn you can MOVE another 3 inch into cover again (perhaps the APC itself)

--> OK that presumes that you start with a squad in a vehicle, but that is what it should do, fast movement and hart hitting while doing it
--> itīs not covered by the rules as I see that, but I err. As I said it describes what you can make of it and what even should be done. If you add the action of the moving troops at the end of the transport or at another activation it gets even better, but I think that would overpower the whole thing.
--> what I proposed takes cover of the rules and you have only to "remodel" the disembarking in your head.

(BTW: if you want a mix of both: Activate the models in the APC distinct from the crew in another separate activation but stick to the disembarking! that meaning the disembarkers get one action to disembark, one to move away and clear the space and as last one action you can use as you wish....)


Please donīt think the answers where shouted. I used big charakters for a bit of emphasisi, but it shouldnīt look angry ;-))
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2008, 10:15:55 AM »
To answer your #1 it actually takes 2 or more actions depending on distance from APC must move into BTB contact then board the transport.  #2 Actually No since they are at this point 2 units when the unit was finished your opponent would go then you could activate the APC or the APC may have already gone moving closer to the squad that was goig to board. As page 40 states they are considered Crewmen and if you read on page 92 under Multi-Crewed Vehicles it reads: when a vehicle has more than 1 model in its crew, then each model has a set of action. In general, they must each use an actin before any of them can use another action. Meaning that if the APC moved 3 times the crew would only have 1 action that could be used at that point not all 3 actions. So yes #'s 3 and 4 are correct but not interchangable since if the APC uses it's 3 actions the transported unit would only have 1 action left.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2008, 10:53:21 AM »
I think thats the key issue here, Are the units on board crew or not.
Logically i dont see them as crew, most APCs and transports have seperate crew and passenger sections.
As someone else has said previously, when in a transport all they can do is hold on and pray. They have no control over what goes on with the transport. They cant fire or spot or anything that requires an action.
Crew of the APC can fire and or drive thus requiring actions. The tranportees can do neither, they can just wait and check their weapons and prepare for battle.

While I respect your opinion, I think they way you read it < or it is written> makes transports useless. But if we play it your way Ill make sure your troops die like the rest of the crew  ;D

I think the easiest way to "fix" this, would be to classify the passengers as passengers and the crew as crew being two seperate units each having their own activations. This IMO gives the transports the flexibility they were designed to bring to an army.

I think tho that we need some kind of a consensus, maybe from the FAQ team?

Seeing as I dont use transports, Ill play it either way but I think it should be cleared up
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2008, 11:46:57 AM »
I value your opinion too my friend, but in this case the rules are clearly spelled out and there is no need for this to be FAQ'ed.  APC's are not useless, they just have to be used correctly to be effective. They work well in scenerio games where you need to get a squad to an objective quickly . I personlly dont use them, but if I did I'd start with a squad in the APC on turn 1 I would move 3 times shooting each action if possible then on turn 2 my 1st activation would be the APC action 1 APC shoots with +3 for not moving squad disembarks uses there actions then the APC shoot at +3 for it's 2nd action then shoot and move for it's 3rd action. On turn 3 they would now be 2 seperate units and activate at seperate times.
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Offline warzoneD

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2008, 11:56:27 AM »
Im afraid I don't think they're very clear since they clearly contrdict themselves.  Now one can choose to say pg 40 is right and pr. 89 is wrong - but that's rather arbitrary IMO.

So, I have to agree with Phillysniper here. 

And I like Lopis suggstion #3

"Let them activate as a separate unit. Ok sounds good and comes near to reality. I personally think it should be done this way, BUT no activation at the end of the vehicles turn..... If its activated the initiative has to rotate again and after that the minis can disembark.

The UWZ rules are designed to simulate combat reality.   

I spoke with my buddy who is an army capitain about the logistics and terminology about this. 

Like PS stated, in real life the vehicle has its own crew and commander.  A squad being transported has a separate commander.  Never does the military consider the squad on board as now part of the crew. 

Even the Air Force pararescue jumpers who work tightly with their helo crews are considered 2 separate squads working together. 

I think, as myself and others have stated, the key issue is - does the boarding squad join the crew. 

I don't believe it does, esp. since even the rulebook uses the term "complement" instead of crew.

And, haviing read all the arguments so far - in terms of usefulness and game play - it seems to me the squad should remain a SEPARATE UNIT and therefore should require a SEPARATE ACTIVATION

I believe this is implied in the rules - since nowhere else does it say the crew requires a CREW ACTIVATION PHASE.  Why would it single out the passenger unit?  Nowhere else do the rules do this. 

IMO this makes tranporting tricky but still useful, AND more importantly it simulates real life combat, and, as I wrote earlier, adds several elements of strategy - eg.  Use of officers on board the vehicle to give orders (which would be the only case in which one could effectively move a vehicle and immed disembark a boarded squad before your enemy moves again), when to board/move/disembark, etc.  Think about it - now you have to decide if its worth it to put a division or force commander on a vehicle or use him elsewhere on the field.

The other method described simply makes no sense to me (real life or gamewise).   If it was the designer's intention, well then I think it's a bit broken.

For instance - according to what your agruing - My boarding squad boards an APC and joins the crew - well then if it does that means it automatically activates the vehicle - since as part of the crew - now all the other crew members get to use their actions?

You could argue no - once it boards its done. 

But then on my next go couldn't I subsequently activate my vehicle - the squad onboard now effectively gains a SECOND activation in the same turn (since it is part of the crew).   After all instead of moving I could always just stay put, have the gunners fire their guns, and let my squad disembark and use its other 2 actions.   (effectively just hiding in the hard cover during my opponent's activation.  (or are you going to penalize the vehicle and saying it loses its activation when a squad boards it???)

It just doesn't work.

D
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 12:00:17 PM by warzoneD »

Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2008, 12:06:46 PM »
Please help me understand what is not clear on page 40 about the Passenger unit being considered crew and on page 92 about the way a multicrewed vehicles actions are used. This isn't about the way we want things to work, it's about the way the rules say they work.Please read page 40 and 92 then reread pages 90-91 2.0 to 2.2 with that info. ;D
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2008, 12:29:35 PM »
First off all:

I didnt reread the rules exactly, but we had this constellation in the scenario so I read them then and distill what is needed:

@Dragon:

Youīre right. I donīt know exactly on which pages, but somewhere is statedt that the boarded troops activate as passengers and on another point is described how passengers work. And they activate as the crewmembers do.

But if you foolow these rules again and further you canīt disembark!
Because all activate alltogether in a round only 3 guys can leave the transport, Thy all activate in the same action, but in different segemnts.
Iīll show you what follows if you do it your way:

1st Action:
a) driver drives or stands and looks
b) gunner shoots
c) boarded guy disembarks....
d) boarded guy canīt disembark because thereīs no free space (another one in the exit door)
e) as d
and so on
--> Since all other minis activate now they canīt exit, one in the door, and the one in the door canīt move since itīs not another action allowed for him!!!

2nd Action
a) driver does his
b) gunner guns
c) disembarked guy moves and makes the door free
d) another boarded guy disembarks and blocks the door......
e) see above

and so on and on and on    ???

So these rules simply canīt be meant this way. I see your point , but can you show me some other more useless models than that if this is true ? ?
So i gave some possibilities to handle it.

If someone has better ideas, just bring īem out!


And BTW: @WarzoneD
I hope you want to applicate this only to the APC?
Because this blade has two sides....The passengers of the Skimmer would lose their drive-by shooting ability because they are passengers too.
But somewehere is stated they are members of the crew....so it wouldnīt apply anyway It hink
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2008, 12:53:36 PM »
Actually it says disembark and use remaining actions thats why if you wait till action 3 only 1 guy can disembark, and the door would be blocked since he cant move away from the door.That's why I gave an exsample of the way it should be used. Also as far as the Skimmer it states that they can shoot or disembark.
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Offline Lopis

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2008, 12:58:20 PM »
in my example I started in Action 1
Probelm is that if you do it by the rules you need 3 full turns to get a squad out of the APC... ???

3 Actions per model and for more than 6 models you need the third turn.....
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2008, 01:33:01 PM »
I think Lopis just voiced my issue with the way its worded.
As you read it Phil unless you start your units in the transport it takes 3 turns to move them  up to 18" and have them be a viable fighting unit again. That makes transports useless except as a moving weapons platform  thats arent cheap imo
For the same 3 turns with a nine-man squad I can have 5 fire, 4 move 6" to a more tactically advantageous position  and then fire or just move 9" to cover or whatever or any combo of the three for three turns, which give me more flexibility and the same distance with more shots on targets< at least 15 shots, in the previous example> vs 3 from the transport.

I know what pg 40 says but I also know that pgs 90-91 were also written with words that back up my side of the debate< the words passenger unit werent chosen by random, they could have just used crew>. Those pages were written specifically for use of a transport whereas pg 40 starts by saying "in general". It also goes on to say " passenger unit activation" which makes them different from the crew in wording. We have said before when things were unclear to go with the section specifically devoted to the situation which the transports pages are. Page 40 could and does cover the strike skimmer but pages 90 and 91 wouldnt.

Thats why I say it needs to be cleared up. You gave a great example of how it could work by your thinking but I can give you several of why it can work by my thinking.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 01:38:53 PM by PhillySniper »
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2008, 01:47:02 PM »
When you take page 40 and page 92 it doesn't support the way your reading pages 90-91 also it doesn't take 3 Turns to go 18 inches it takes 3 Actions inwhich you can also fire its weapons. On Turn 2 action 1 disembark use all disembarking troop actions and the APC still its actions it doesnt take 3 turns to disembark the squad as Lopis states. The way its written as long as you disembark on action 1 or 2 you can get everyone out. If you disembark on action 2 all you can do is exit and move up to your normal move to get out of the way since they only would have 2 actions to use.
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2008, 01:47:15 PM »
in my example I started in Action 1 (...)

unfortunately, it is wrong..


in normal action spending it is true that the second action of that guy from the passenger-unit is linked to the actions of the vehicle.

after the exit-action however he _must_ spend all of his actions _at once_

so your example looks like this:

1st Action:
a) driver drives or stands and looks
b) gunner shoots
c) boarded guy disembarks....
d) boarded guy canīt disembark because thereīs no free space (another one in the exit door) spends 2. and 3. AC

2nd Action
a) driver does his
b) gunner guns
c) disembarked guy moves and makes the door free is done
d) another boarded guy disembarks and blocks the door...... spends action 2+3

right?


@useful:

well, to link the actions to the vehicle meas the famous (GW rhino rush, i remember?) tactic "i move my transporter, disembark and shoot (with 2 A)" is not possible

on the second turn itīs still qute weak because disembarking effectively costs 2 Actions: get out + get away


-> itīs really not to rush but to transport.

whether this is more or less "realistic" i donīt know..
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