Author Topic: Activation of a squad inside a transport  (Read 25868 times)

Offline Enker

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Activation of a squad inside a transport
« on: January 03, 2008, 12:06:46 AM »

How is activation for a squad in a transport working?
Lets say you have one squad in a Vermin APC.
Can you move the Vermin APC three actions and then use your squad immediatly with all of their actions?
Or do you have to let your opponent activate one squad after the Vermin finished its activation
and after that you can use your squad in the Vermin with their activations?
Or do the squad inside count as passengers. So you would have to make one action with the Vermin then one action with each squadmember and so on.
 ???

Beside that, are you allowed to deploy the Vermin with a squad inside?

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Offline Seamus

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2008, 06:00:52 AM »
Page 40: 'Vehicles and Using Actions' - Last paragraph first column and top of second column. 
Page 90 and 91 (Covers the rules for Boarding, Travelling, Disembarking, and Surviving a destroyed transport).

 According to these rules, yes you can deploy the transport with a squad and this can include an officer already linked to the squad inside the transport.  They are treated as a single passenger unit and this passenger unit takes action just like an additional crew member, i.e. simultaneously.   So the answer to your question, Can you move the APC three actions and then use your squad immediately with all of their actions is no.  They would have only 1 action remaining and since it takes 1 action to disembark, only 1 member of the squad could exit because at that point he/she would be out of actions and blocking the exit point.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2008, 08:10:41 AM »
only 1 member of the squad could exit because at that point he/she would be out of actions and blocking the exit point.

Umm I dont believe that is correct. You can move through your own unit, so the rest of the unit could disembark  outside the exit of the APC with no actions left. It states that it costs an AC to disembark which I took to be a move action only. I would think that you could disembark up to your MV in inches away from the exit of the transport. Am I mistaken?
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2008, 08:28:21 AM »
Yes if you were to disembark as the vehicles 3rd action one trooper would be infront of the door blocking the rest from exiting. It clearly states that in the book. It cost 1 action to disembark placing the model at the exit point you need a second action to move from the exit point.
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Offline Seamus

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2008, 10:14:32 AM »
Umm I dont believe that is correct. You can move through your own unit, so the rest of the unit could disembark  outside the exit of the APC with no actions left. It states that it costs an AC to disembark which I took to be a move action only. I would think that you could disembark up to your MV in inches away from the exit of the transport. Am I mistaken?

If the transport has moved 3 actions, there is only 1 action remaining to the passenger unit unless one of the passengers has more than 3 actions.  A normal move action, I would agree with you, however the model is not performing a normal move, it is DISEMBARKING the transport which costs 1 action.  The last remaining action that model can perform.

Check out page 91 - 2.2 - Disembarking a Transport
"...Models that disembark spend 1 action to leave the transport.  They should be placed in base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport may tae another non-Wait action.  Any model (friendly or enemy) in base contact with the transport's exit point will block transporting models from being able to disembark."


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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2008, 10:20:33 AM »
Thx guys. Thats what I get for not having my book around before I open my mouth  :-X
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Offline Seamus

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2008, 12:21:19 PM »
Thx guys. Thats what I get for not having my book around before I open my mouth  :-X

No problem, I did the same thing last week and I hadn't played a game nor looked at the book in almost 2 years.  So, after I goofed, I pulled my book out and reread all the rules.  One of the things I had forgotten i had done was write out all the FAQ corrections from the old FAQ in my book.  When I get some extra time, I'm going to compare what we have now with my book to see if anything was missed and bring my notes up to date.
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Offline warzoneD

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2008, 12:52:37 PM »
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, and maybe I'm misundertsanding you Seamus--

But it seems like you're saying that after the vehicle moves only 1 guy can disembark because he's blocking the door??? 

If so, that not only makes no sense to me but it would also make transporting troops ridiculously useless and slow. 
(In modern warfare an entire squad can dump out of vehicle (APC or helo) in a matter of seconds.)

What's more confusing is that everyone seems to be saying that the troopers in the squad disembarking only get 1 AC???

Maybe I'm missing something - but please indulge me and let me walk you guys through my logic on this--

To me this discussion breaks down into 2 areas. 

1) Does the boarded squad activate as part of the vehicle's activation. 
2) How many actions and troopers can be used during a disembark.

Let's begin with pg 89 first - 3rd parapgraph - "Operator and Crewmembers are activate at SAME time and can alternate the performing of actions.  They are considered a SINGLE unit." (NOTE: my emphasis)

It also says "the order in which these actions are performed is up to the player...All that matters is at the end of the Vehicle's Turn, the operator and ALL OF THE CREW have taken ALL avaliable actions."

So we've learned that everyone in a Vehicle Unit (driver, gunner, etc.) during this Vehcile's Turn gets ALL their actions.  Except for a very small number of exceptions, I think we can all agree this = 3 AC.

So now the key question to me is - Is the boarded squad now considered PART of the crew or a SEPARATE unit?

If the boarded squad is PART of the vehicle's crew than it would get to use it's actions (all 3) DURING the Vehicle's Turn. I.e. It could spending 1 AC to disembark and the remaining 2 AC to move, fire etc (Again, as part of the Vehicle' unit's activation).  Moreover, it could use all their AC at any time during the Vehicle's Turn and as many in a row as it wants.

If it is NOT part of the Vehicle's Unit, than the boarded squad would require a SEPARATE ACTIVATION (which would make having a hero/officer on board your vehicle more useful and staretgic since as part of the vehicle's turn he could essentially activate the boarded squad and order them out) in order to disembark.  Yet it would still get all 3 AC.  1 AC to disembark and 2 AC to move, etc.

Now, if we check out pg. 90 Section 2.0 - The boarded models are "considered PART of the vehicles compliment."  One COULD assume this phrase means = to another crew member, and therefore entitled to ALL its actions as any crew member would, on the Vehicle's Turn.

However on pg 91.  Section 2.1 we read - "While in the transport, Squads being transported are considered a SINGLE passenger unit.  Here the word UNIT.  Stands out to me.  It is not a crew member but being referred to as a sepearte unit.  Furthermore, later we read, "...during the PASSENGER UNIT's ACTIVATION, one or MORE of the squad may choose to disembark." 

Here the squad is not only referred to as a UNIT, but it is also has a specific, and separate, "ACTIVATION" phase.

To me, this says the boarded squad is NOT part of the Vehicle's crew and therefore could NOT disembark during the Vehicle's Turn. 

It is a separate unit and need to be activate separately. 

HOWEVER - As shown above, once activated (whether on a later phase or by a commander), it would only need to spend 1 AC to disembark at which point the troopers on board would have 2 AC to move clear of the door and make way for others.
(We read in section 2.2 - "the Passenger unit needs to spend 1 AC to disembark" = this unit would then have 2 MORE actions.)

So, to me what needs to be clarified is..."considered PART of the vehicles compliment."   

Does the term compliment here mean = to a crew member or not. 

If yes - then the language "PASSENGER UNIT" and "PASSENGER UNIT ACTIVATION"   should be changed.

D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 01:02:24 PM by warzoneD »

Offline Seamus

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2008, 07:06:30 PM »
Please note, my capitalizations of certain words are to indicate Titles and should not be consider 'yelling'.  I am debating the issue not angry or upset.  ;D
Also, no need for forgiveness but I think you departed from the rules at a critical point and the rest of your confusion stems from that point. 

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, and maybe I'm misundertsanding you Seamus--

Enker wanted to know if the squad could use all of their actions after the vehicle/crew had used their three actions.  The answer is no.

Quote
But it seems like you're saying that after the vehicle moves only 1 guy can disembark because he's blocking the door??? 
Only if the scenario painted by Enker is used.  If the vehicle moved 1 action then all of the squad would then have all three actions.

Quote
What's more confusing is that everyone seems to be saying that the troopers in the squad disembarking only get 1 AC???
No, they can have all three actions but actions while in a vehicle are used simultaneously.  For instance, lets say the APC has a driver, a gunner and 6 models inside being transported.  The 6 models while inside the transport count as a single unit, the passenger unit.  The passenger unit has only two options, ride or disembark.  Each time the driver and gunner and expend an action, every model that is being transported also expends an action even if it is only to ride.  There is a time element introduced into the game by these simultaneous actions and it was done largely because of the ability of a few vehicle models in 2nd edition to create a situation where the pilot/driver of the vehicle could move move move then the gunner could then shoot, shoot, shoot. 

Here is how I believe it is meant to work based on everything I have read and have been taught by one of the rule designers:

Action 1:  Driver drives, gunner fires, passenger unit rides.  This kills the first action for all units in the transport.
Action 2: Driver drives, gunner fires, passenger unit rdies.  This kills the second action for all units in the transport.
Action 3: Driver drives, gunner goes on wait as their are no targets, passenger unit receives orders from their leader to disembark.  However at this point, they only have one action remaining.  We now switch over to the rules for disembarking.  It costs one action to disembark, which is performed by placeing the model at the entrance to the passenger section.  This costs 1 action.  Additionally there is a rule which states if the entrance to the passenger compartment has a model in front of it (friendly or foe) then no one else can leave until the door is unblocked. 

Ergo, don't disembark on the third action because the first guy out the door blocks it for the rest of the squad.  Instead stay inside and disembark during the first action on the next turn.  That way your squad inside the transport have all three actions available to them.

Quote
To me this discussion breaks down into 2 areas. 

1) Does the boarded squad activate as part of the vehicle's activation. 
2) How many actions and troopers can be used during a disembark.

I agree with this however, on point 2, I was answering a specific question.


Quote
Let's begin with pg 89 first - 3rd parapgraph - "Operator and Crewmembers are activate at SAME time and can alternate the performing of actions.  They are considered a SINGLE unit." (NOTE: my emphasis)

It also says "the order in which these actions are performed is up to the player...All that matters is at the end of the Vehicle's Turn, the operator and ALL OF THE CREW have taken ALL avaliable actions."

This is the crux of our difference in opinion and where I believe you erred.  The paragraph you quoted takes place in the introduction to the vehicle section and is attempting to summarize how a vehicle operates but has instead introduced verbage that clearly contradicts a BASIC GAME RULE that is laid out in SECTION 5, USING ACTIONS; page 40 near the bottom of the page in the VEHICLES AND USING ACTIONS section which states: " . . . any crew riding within it [Vehicle] must expend their actions simultaneously.  If the driver uses his first action to drive, any other crewman must spend their first action before the driver can spend his second."  It clearly states here in the basic rules of the game that all components of the vehicle must expend their first action, then their second action etc. simultaneously.  In the second paragraph under that, it talks about models inside a transport, " . . . are considered part of a single passenger Unit.  This passenger Unit takes actions just like an additional crewmember.  During the passenger Unit activation, one or more of the transporting models may elect to disembark by spending one action . . . See Armored Personal (SIC) Carriers for more detail."

Quote
So we've learned that everyone in a Vehicle Unit (driver, gunner, etc.) during this Vehcile's Turn gets ALL their actions.  Except for a very small number of exceptions, I think we can all agree this = 3 AC.

So now the key question to me is - Is the boarded squad now considered PART of the crew or a SEPARATE unit?[

The boarded squad is a part of the crew with a limited set of actions to two:  Ride or Disembark per the rules I just quoted on page 40.

Quote
If the boarded squad is PART of the vehicle's crew than it would get to use it's actions (all 3) DURING the Vehicle's Turn. I.e. It could spending 1 AC to disembark and the remaining 2 AC to move, fire etc (Again, as part of the Vehicle' unit's activation).  Moreover, it could use all their AC at any time during the Vehicle's Turn and as many in a row as it wants.
This is where we disagree.  See above.

Quote
If it is NOT part of the Vehicle's Unit, than the boarded squad would require a SEPARATE ACTIVATION (which would make having a hero/officer on board your vehicle more useful and staretgic since as part of the vehicle's turn he could essentially activate the boarded squad and order them out) in order to disembark.  Yet it would still get all 3 AC.  1 AC to disembark and 2 AC to move, etc.
They are clearly a part of the crew.

Quote
Now, if we check out pg. 90 Section 2.0 - The boarded models are "considered PART of the vehicles compliment."  One COULD assume this phrase means = to another crew member, and therefore entitled to ALL its actions as any crew member would, on the Vehicle's Turn.

However on pg 91.  Section 2.1 we read - "While in the transport, Squads being transported are considered a SINGLE passenger unit.  Here the word UNIT.  Stands out to me.  It is not a crew member but being referred to as a sepearte unit.  Furthermore, later we read, "...during the PASSENGER UNIT's ACTIVATION, one or MORE of the squad may choose to disembark." 

Here the squad is not only referred to as a UNIT, but it is also has a specific, and separate, "ACTIVATION" phase.

To me, this says the boarded squad is NOT part of the Vehicle's crew and therefore could NOT disembark during the Vehicle's Turn. 

It is a separate unit and need to be activate separately.

HOWEVER - As shown above, once activated (whether on a later phase or by a commander), it would only need to spend 1 AC to disembark at which point the troopers on board would have 2 AC to move clear of the door and make way for others.
(We read in section 2.2 - "the Passenger unit needs to spend 1 AC to disembark" = this unit would then have 2 MORE actions.)

So, to me what needs to be clarified is..."considered PART of the vehicles compliment."   

Does the term compliment here mean = to a crew member or not. 

If yes - then the language "PASSENGER UNIT" and "PASSENGER UNIT ACTIVATION"   should be changed.

D

The rest of what you say is clearly resolved by what I consider the actual rule concerning the manner in which a vehicles crew expends their actions on page 40.  Your entire argument hinges on that rule and the supposition that the transported squad is separate even though page 40 clearly states that this 'passenger Unit' takes actions just like a crew member.  I look at the 'passenger Unit activation' stated on page 91 to refer to their phase on each succeeding action not a separate unit being activated.  They don't become a separate unit until the turn after they have disembarked.  I think certain verbage in the Vehicles section could have been worded better to bring it in line with the rules in Section 5 on using actions however when read in context with those rules, the meaning becomes crystal clear in my opinion.   

To summarize, I believe that what I have said is right because:
A) Page 40 is a part of the basic rules and outlines how to use actions for all types models and so supercedes the verbage you use to indicate how a crew spends their actions.
B) I know from conversations with one of the rule designers which I believe can be verified by Coil, that an attempt was made to tone down the power of vehicles from second edition and prevent the usage of actions by what are essentially components of the same model in such a way that it gives them an unfair advantage.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 07:10:05 PM by Seamus »
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Offline warzoneD

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2008, 07:39:30 PM »
I see your points, Seamus.   Well taken--

But, even if the Squad is part of the vehicle (and if it is, see my comments below) - then it still should have all its actions at any point in the move because I don't see the verbage in parapraph 3 on pg 89 as fluff. 

It's clearly rules related and it states that the crew and driver can expend their actions in ANY order.  Which means the driver can drive, drive, drive, then the  gunner, can shoot, shoot, shoot, and then the passenger unit can hop off and use its 2 AC.

Now I realize these rules are in direct contradiction to Pg 40 - so I believe that this IS our problem.  Again, if you've heard from the proverbial horses' mouth that pg 40 is right and 89 is wrong - so be it.  Personally I think that ruins transporting usefulness.

RE: The passenger unit - if what you say is the designer's intention (that they are part of the vehicle crew) then I feel the verbage is wrong. 

The term "unit" in military jargon refers to a group. 

There is not a driver unit and a crew unit.   

For clarity's sake IMO, the rule should therefore read that the squad is now treated as a crew member.

Also - I think it is odd that they are referrenced as requiring a separate activation.  But I defer to your knowledge based on your talks with the game's writers.

NOTE: This was all said with a friendly smile and a mildly hypnotizing lilting tone  ;)

;)

Cheers--

D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 08:17:54 PM by warzoneD »

Offline Enker

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2008, 02:47:27 AM »
So IMO the rule is that a squad inside a transport is part of the transport, with all rules applying for passengers, ok.
So if the vehicle moves three actions the troopers inside can just pray, clean their shoes or something like that for two actions
and with their last action they can disembark the transport.

But I think this is not a good rule. It makes transports to weak.
I would prefer to tread them as different units.
So you first activate the transport and after that the unit inside. Makes it more realistic.

The question is then if you let your opponent make an activation between this two units or not.
If he may do so, he could blow up the transport before the troopers could disembark, nasty but ok.
If the squad inside is activated immediatly after the vehicle it makes them very deadly,
but the rules IMO doesn't allow this (the vehicle crew can't give orders to the squad) even if you say they are two different unit.

Are the rules IMO fair?

Do we need a new rule for squad activation inside a transport?
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2008, 04:40:19 AM »
WarzoneD in that paragraph the Any Order you are talking about referrs to what you want to do as far as say: Move/Shoot/Ride Shoot/Ride/Move  The only way for the transported unit to use all 3 actions for something other than ride is to on action 1 Disembark. Another exsample would be the Strike Commando's on the Skimmer they can disembark or shoot but there actions are taken at the same time as the vehicle.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2008, 05:39:25 AM »
Pg 91 Section 2.1
Quote
Unless otherwise stated in the profile, models inside a
transport are considered protected by the Vehicle. They cannot
be directly harmed unless the Vehicle is destroyed. While in the
transport, Squads being transported are considered a single
passenger Unit.
During this passenger Unit activazion, one or
more of the models may elect to disembark.

Pg 91 Section 2.2
Quote
During the passenger Unit activation. one or more of the
transported models may disembark. Models that disembark
spend 1 action to leave the transport. They should be placed in
base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to
spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport
may take another non-Wait action.

Guys

Based on reading this from the rule book, IMO the transport and the units being transported get two seperate sets of activations. I think transport and crew would get to activate, use all three of its actions , move shoot wait etc, and then the PASSENGER UNIT would get to activate.... after your opponent gets an activation. The transport and the squad being transported are ALWAYS two different units, the transport squad is just getting the advantage of the speed and protection of the transport.

Notice in section 2.1 that it doesnt say during the transport' activation it says during the passenger unit' activation meaning to me that the activations are different and not one and the same.

Another thing that makes this stand out to me, is the way troops are treated if the transport is destroyed. Unlike any other vehicle, whose crew is killed when the vehicle is destroyed, the transport has specific rules for what to do with its passengers if it is destroyed.

Thats just my feeling on the topic.


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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 06:01:13 AM »
Dont forget that page 90  2.0 states to board a transport the model must move into base contact and spend 1 action to board. Once boarded, a model's turn is ended and it is considered to be part of the Vehicle's Compliment until it disembarks. So if the models are within 1 move it takes 2 actions to board and their 3rd action is lost as all they can do is be transported for their 3rd action. The transport was designed really to move a troop safely 18 inches turn 1 with the transport shooting then at the start of turn 2 let the troops disembark while laying down covering fire with a bonus for not moving (+3) and also be cover for the troops. This way it's kind of like give orders, disembarking troops use 1 action diembark, 1 action move into position, and their 3rd action shoot/wait/etc then the vehicle would finish it's actions. This is the way the transport was entended to be used.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Activation of a squad inside a transport
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 06:39:20 AM »
Phil
I have to disagree with you there.

If Dragoons are boarding a transport, its the Dragoons activation, not the transports. So the Dragoons finishes their activation by boarding then its the opponents turn to activate a unit. Next the transport moves, shoots etc. The Dragoons have already gone so they have no actions to spend. Are you saying that the transport cant move because everyone on board doesnt have 3 actions? I dont think thats the case.

During the next turn the transport activates... to get the units closer to the action, to clear the area of threats etc...The transports activation is now done. The enemy activates a unit. Now the Dragoons activate. The first Dragoon uses one action to disembark then one action to move out of the way then one action to lay down covering fire. The rest of the Dragoons do likewise.. end of Dragoons activation.

IMO never do the two units < the transport and the Dragoons> become ONE unit. They both still have their own activations. Those activations have to be used seperately.

You are correct when you state that the unit becomes a part of the vehicles compliment..NOT crew.  If they were crew.. when the transport was destroyed the unit would be as well... just like the crew of any vehicle. They arent destroyed, they are give a chance to escape, hence being part of the compliment but not the crew. Compliment just means they are protected by the transport and cant be targeted individually.

Pg 90 section 2.2 says "They should be placed in
base contact with the transport exit point, and are required to
spend their remaining actions before anyone in the transport
may take another non-Wait action."

It doesnt say before the transport can take another action. IMO thats because its not the transports activation...its the units.
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