Praetorian Behemoth

[jjdodger]

From "Close Combat"
"In Close Combat, the attacking model takes an action to
Strike an enemy model..."
"Close Combat ensues, It may now make a CC attack action."

From "Natural Attack"
"Whether a series of punches and kicks
or one mighty hamming blow, when a model spends an action
using these skills in an attempt to harm the enemy, the attack is
referred to as a Natural Attack."

Sounds like an attack to me! Same thing as charging in and swining the big ole pole arm, except its a fist the size of a volkwagen. If you successfully charge, you make make an attack action. Swinging a pole arm, or swining a fist, is still an "action".

[dmcgee1]

I did not dispute the fact that it is an Attack AC - merely that a Natural Attack is not a "weapon" - primary nor secondary.

[warzoneD]

If I may take a shot at this--- (NOTE: I rarely play Dark Legion and when I do it's usually Illian or Muaji-baby so I have no investment in the outcome of this argument...that being said...)

I think we're drifting a bit into semantics here.  Let's work backwards --

To me, the Natural Attack SA seems to be a catch-all for bites, claws, fists, etc.  While one could argue they are not literal weapons (i.e. gun, spear, etc), they are essentially just like combat weapons (i.e. a method by which you damage your opponent).  Therefore they would be subject to the same restrictions penalties etc. as any other "weapon" regarding the Secondary Attack SA.

In regards to the Behemoth - again the rules are a guideline and they can not cover every variable and I think we can all agree that in UWZ, as great a system as it is, there are one or two contradictions (hence the FAQ).   

While the rules state one can not use a pole arm and side arm at the same time - I don't think the four armed death machine Behemoth was who they had in mind when they wrote this one.  I suspect it was geared towards the average 2 armed trooper ("Only 2 arms!  Pathetic!" "How can you play a 12 string guitar?" Laughs the Behemoth).

Considering the Behemoth has four arms (whether he be 2x lefty or 2x righty) one would assume he would use two to wield his spear, and one to wield his side arm, suffering the same penalties for anyone firing a second weapon. 

Now, according to the secondary attack rules - the Behemoth could use both his spear (primary weapon) and his handcannon (secondary weapon) in 1 AC.  (Ouchy!  I know my brotherhood army is squirming right now). 

And I think this is where the problem may lie.  To me the issue is should the Decimator be a "side arm" - i.e. usable in CC.

If yes - then, sorry guys, the way I would read it (even if staring down the muzzle), it would be usable.
Also - , well there's no real need for that natural fist attack now is there?  When would you use it.

If no - then I agree that the secondary attack would instead be the fist.

I think the answer to this one may lie with the higher-ups sharing with us what their vision/intention was when desiging this big bad boy.

Hope I helped.

D

[dmcgee1]

The Decimator Handcannon is, indeed, a sidearm, as that is the section under which it is listed in the Weapons Section, just as the anti-tank axe that is the Giant Azoghar is, indeed, a polearm.

[warzoneD]

Agreed - my question is - should it remain in that category or should it be moved (or at the very least exempted from being usable in CC). 

Again this is up to the game's creators and depends on what capabilities they had in mind for this creature.

D

[dmcgee1]

To the Behemoth (the only model that garries the weapon), it is a sidearm.  Were another, smaller, model to use it, perhaps it would not, then, be classified as such.  I feel that it is fine to remain in that category.

[warzoneD]

WELL - if that's the case - then according to my b.d. above it would be a totally viable secondary attack.

D

[Dr. Nick]

yes, but better than 2 attacks with the azogar...

is it clear now, that the natural attack does not work / not need to be used  as sec. attack ??

[Lopis]

I would say Yes.

[warzoneD]

It seems you could choose--

1 attack with Azo
2nd with Decimator

Or

1 w/ Azo
2nd w/fist

You would not get 2 with Azo - since this only applies IF the model does not have a second weapon.

[jjdodger]

You cannot attack with the azo and the decimator in one action, as you cannot use sidearms and a polearm in one action. As long as the 2 attacks are not the polearm and the decimator, you are fine.

[warzoneD]

But it doesn't make sense - he has 4 arms - as I discuss above.

Frankly - I don't use them. :-D

[Dragon62]

I'd like to point out the PB used this weapon 1-handed 1st and 2nd edition, is modeled withit 1-handed and as far as I know all pictures show it as 1-handed. The Creature has 4 arms and should be able to use both although the Crucifier has 4 arms and can only make 1 sword/1pistol attack even though it has 2 of each.

[jjdodger]

Lots of models have weapons, etc, that the corresponding stat lines do not have, ie, one of the bauhaus sgt models has a shotgun, but the stat line says assault rifle. IE, the models are not nessisarily WYSIWYG.

[warzoneD]

Maybe Crucifier's are genetically...all thumbs