Shortcomings of 2nd edition

[dmcgee1]

9 Dragoons + Sgt + 3 Snipers

Only two snipers per squad - no way to do three per squad.

[PhillySniper]

I know I was making a point 

[Topkick]

All this "unbeatable armies" talk would make me nervous except for one thing - I'd just say thanks but no thanks and walk away. Too much cheese blocks my colon. This way I don't end up annoyed and you can find someone else to measure your manhood against.

It's one thing to build a non-standard force for a scenario and quite another to morph into Colonel Camembert or Major Muenster. If you need to win that badly then just declare yourself King of Warzone get some craft paper, scissors and glue and make yourself a crown. I'll supply the glitter so you can make it look pretty.

Seriously what does this "Killer Army Syndrome" prove?

[Topkick]

9 Dragoons + Sgt + 3 Snipers

Only two snipers per squad - no way to do three per squad.

If you are going to change the buying criteria why can't he?

[Lopis]

Hey Top,

I think we all didnīwant to show our manhood in presenting "unbeatable forces".
I think we wanted to make the point that we think that we donīt need further upgrading through more support.....You can plan pretty cheesy and ruthless forces within the rules already.
That it sucks all the fun....Yes it does. I take it as a possibility to try 2 or 3 times to beat such a force by tactic or scenario. Istnīthat much fun, but there are one or two pretty funny moments ;-)

But we all have to remember: Everyone can make the houserules as he wants......

[dmcgee1]

All this "unbeatable armies" talk would make me nervous except for one thing - I'd just say thanks but no thanks and walk away. Too much cheese blocks my colon. This way I don't end up annoyed and you can find someone else to measure your manhood against.

It's one thing to build a non-standard force for a scenario and quite another to morph into Colonel Camembert or Major Muenster. If you need to win that badly then just declare yourself King of Warzone get some craft paper, scissors and glue and make yourself a crown. I'll supply the glitter so you can make it look pretty.

Seriously what does this "Killer Army Syndrome" prove?

I am with you on this one Top.  Even though I was once a player who created and played an "unbeatable force," I have come to realize that the fun is worth way more than the win.

[Archer]

I am with you on this one Top.  Even though I was once a player who created and played an "unbeatable force," I have come to realize that the fun is worth way more than the win.

  And *that* is why I have zero problems playing with you man.   Playing for fun 'tween friends is the way to go.  Leave the daggers/Sledgehammer armies for tourney play.

[PhillySniper]

I agree with you guys. Uber forces might be a fun intellectual excercise. The might even be fun against a particularly tough opponent but changing the rules to make them easier to build is not in the spirit of THIS version of the game. Most of the folks I play against go out of their way to avoid cheese. That why I think we have a thriving gaming group in our area. They are all fun to play against without being cheddar. Have we made house rules? Sure to speed up the game or to clarify an issue. But just to get all the MHMGs we can on the board? No. We play it as written and have a BLAST doing it! <Tho Im going to beat Archer outright one of these times and Dragon and I have to play to something other than mutually assured destruction at least once 

I like the desire to make the game better. But lets focus on things that arent there, like new units,, better arts and spells etc, rather than change the basic ruleset, which IMO works fine.

[Dr. Nick]

??

if my posting caused you to think it was ment to "bring all the mhmg on the table"

i was very much misunderstood..   

if you read it closely, you will see i propose ~2-max 3 (1*2/1 + 1*1/1)  at 1000 P

and i want to motivate to buy elite, who else would not qualify for support
(and therefore might be less interesting than more grunts)

also, if you buy 4 grunts+2 support, you hardly have many points for elite (or you have just crap grunts..)

[PhillySniper]

Im just saying that support has its place...as an addition to your force.. not a primary unit to build yje rest of your force around. Sure 1 EDD is nice 2 in a 1000pt game is over-kill. I used elites all the time in my forces. With Capitol I love Sunset Strikers with Orcas as support and Hvy Inf as my grunts. Or Light Inf with Assault Marines and a Great Grey. Lots of Options. Alot of time With Cyber I dont bring an EDD I use Scorpions as a support slot. Heck in my first Tourny I placed 3rd with a Bauhaus squad built around a full squad of Jaegers with Dragoons as grunts with sniper specs. I didnt have a support option in the entire force and did well. I enjoy playing the game and I would like to think my opponents enjoy playing me as well and I very rarely take support options.

If you like to make house rules to make it easier to take support, more power to you. I just dont think itll catch on. At least not with me.

[Dr. Nick]

well, try it out sometimes, perhaps..

in my feel it adresses the "drag" subject a bit.


of course i know it makes pp possible.
(i have several ronin-wakers laying around waiting to be one day the mishima-chees-walker army of death )

==> but realy, i just propose a second GG in 1000 P.. or an army, around 1 GG+3orcas.
(even if you could, technically, take 6 orcas...)

if you do this, you get 3A models which are good, but not immortal..
try it, it will give you several units & combinations you could never have before and _more different models on the table_ (so many  support units)

to have either a GG or 3 orcas "more" (less other guys..) changes the army in a fun way (gamplay/optic) _&_ imho  makes perfect sense, ballancewise.. (in this setting, -> 1/2u +moderate)


i am not on a crusade here  , but ppl said that the army building system was too much restricting.
this way is, imho.., a good start to address the subject..


cuīs

[JohnL5555]

  Just wanted to chime in and say my point about UWZ being restrictive had nothing to do with creating UBER armies. It was merely pointing out that certain troop types and specific units could no longer operate in the same force anymore.

Thanks,

John

[Topkick]

Never meant to tar you with that brush John. You and I have talked about this subject enough that I know why you would like an alternative point system.

[pinksuezo]

so maybe this isnt the right time to mention this, but i'd love to hear the results of a game between the vulkan army of death and one of the (illegal?) super lists mentioned previously... 

[PhillySniper]

If the VAoD player got to use the same rules its no contest, The VAoD is a very tough force to beat if you dont build an army just to fight it, with extra support slots it becomes darn near impossible. But I wouldnt mind trying