Shortcomings of 2nd edition

[JohnL5555]

  So do you guys think that ignoring the selection restraints but keeping to the 1 support, 1 squad and 1 individual might work? That would be a HAPPY day for me! 

Thanks,

John

[MadBrad]

My .02 

Point systems are always going to be the point of contention on any system.  Unless you go for "generic" troop types, the effort to give each force a different "feel" is going to break in the right circumstances.  No game system I have ever seen does it in a way that it is airtight. 

The second reality is that the point system will not factor in the scenario.

The most contentious arguments come when you try to tinker with a point system that is, at best, a general guideline. So, the mods had it right a few years back when they essentially said "Vulkans point cost was determined using the holy equation.  It will not change.  Deal with it!" 

Most people eventually get tired of min-maxxing and graduate to scenario play, where the force balance is mandated, or the scenario have some elements that  punish over-specialization. 

So, use points as what they were intended, a guideline.   That is the only true UWZ enlightenment.

[PhillySniper]

I have never played 1st or 2nd edition. But after reading this thread, I have come to this conclusion. UWZ is a different game from the previous two. With that being said, I think everyone should try  the game as is. I know its human nature to try and make improvements. But there is enough variety in this game to overcome any perceived flaws. Comparing is nice but trying to make a different game be something other than it is, is a sure way to truely enjoy neither incarnation.
Ive been playing UWZ for several years. Ive played 6 different armies. They all are different. Ive played several miniatures games and tho UWZ isnt perfect it is definately the best.
As we can see we each have their own ideas as to what makes the perfect game. Thats why UWZ is such a great game because it brings all kinds of different likes and styles to the same table to push pewter and throw dice. Theres an old saying" You cant please all of the people all of the time" but Im pleased anytime I get play a well thought out game with some good gamers.

[CmdrKiley]

Another shortcoming of 2nd Edition, was more form Target's demise. 

The Mars and Venus forcebooks really expanded the Capitol and Bauhaus armies, giving them much more choices, flexibiltiy and I think the PVs were recalcualted for them (in their favor).  Overall I recall anyone fielding a Bauhaus or Capitol army out of those sourcebooks against an army out of the boxed set army list seemed to have an unfair advantage.  I'm sure if the other forcebooks came out to flesh out the rest of the armies things would have been better.  It's sort of like Celtos and Void when i-Kore imploded as well.  They came out with an excellent book on the Gaels just before they closed up, which really expanded them but the point values were so redone (not in their favor) that using them against core armies was suicide.  Void had similar issues but really only with the Koralon forcebook which did not come out until after the Urban Mammoth restructuring.

Also Cybertronic and the Tribes of Earth really seemed bland and weak.  Magical powers seemed very limited.  UWZ did a good job putting some favor, and teeth, back into the Tribes of Earth too.  In 2nd Edition they were at best used as mercenaries to bolster a corporate force, but in now way seemed to be able to take on a corporate force point for point.

I think UWZ did a good job picking up where 2nd Edition wanted to go, in expanding the armies.  Also the future expansion plan was a much better idea than the 2nd Edition.  I liked the idea of say a Venus forcebook and have it include new units for all factions that are on Venus rather just dedicate it to Bauhuas like in 2nd Edition. 

[Dr. Nick]

  So do you guys think that ignoring the selection restraints but keeping to the 1 support, 1 squad and 1 individual might work?

no, support is very, very good. mostly move+shoot a MHMG or not move and get +3 (-> ~10+3+~2 im MR!!)

i think 1 support / unit is impossibly good.
we use 1/2 units and that is max possible (imho) without the supports playing the role of the chars in 1.ed -> game makers

@play the game as it is: good point, but simply too many grunts or to few supports, imho

a support can wipe out a squad quite simply. if you would like to build a "max" army, i would just use grunts (4+1 of course )+many supports.

but if you make the elites useful to buy support, that would motivate to include them, because you donīt loose most support-options, and that (use elites) makes the army much more flashy, cool and diverse!
since elites are also more expensive, it is kind of auto-regulationg and prevents to take too much supports (>2 at ~1000P)

cuīs

[Archer]

I can only shudder at the prospect of the following lists....

Cyber:
Mk Machinators x5
Mk Machinators x5
Mk Machinators x4
Mk Machinators x4
Mk Machinators x4
Mk Machinators x4
Scorpion Launcher (w/ blast)
Scorpion Launcher (w/ blast)
Scorpion Launcher (w/ blast)

Imperial
ISC Gendarme x5
ISC Gendarme x5
ISC Gendarme x5
ISC Gendarme x5
ISC Gendarme x5
ISC Gendarme x5
Trenchers (4 riflemen + sniper+sergeant)
Trencher Captain
Hurricane Walker Guardian
Hurricane Walker Guardian
Hurricane Walker Guardian

Capitol:
LI (4r+Sarge)
LI (4r+Sarge)
LI (4r+Sarge)
LI (4r+Sarge)
LI (4r+Sarge)
LI (4r+Sarge)
Dog team (3 + handler)
Dog team (3 + handler)
Colonel
Great Grey
Great Grey
Great Grey
Great Grey

Perfectly Legal 1k forces and those are off the top of my head....  And about as much fun to face as the Vulkan List of Doom @ 1k. (15 Militia, 12 Vulkans, Max/Valerie/Kommandant)  Y'all need to really think about the more-commone support access thing before hooting for it.

  And of the forces above, the scariest to face is almost a draw between the Cap and Cyper on a city/jungle board because of Activation counts and mobilty.  The VAoD gets hurt by Activation counts but can hold its own due to the power it has.   I know how I'd run all of these lists too... and it ain't pretty on the bizness end. (VAoD I have seen Dave run and he does it no diff than I would which kinda scares me)


Back on Topic- Of the three editions, I like 3rd the most, as I said before.  I do miss the less restrictive 1st Edition but I know if I want to play a specialised game, I can do so with the opponent I have.  Scenario games are fun..  (besides, I have like fifty Free Marines- there is nothing like a Hostile Take Over mission against a prepared position using them criminals.  They make it, great.  They don't, well... they was going to get capped anyway.  )

[Lopis]

Hey Archer, you forgot one:

Mishima:

Faceless x 4
Faceless x 4
Faceless x 4
Faceless x 4
--> all Meat Shields

Nagano Shadowwalkers x 2
Nagano Shadowwalkers x 2
Nagano Shadowwalkers x 2
Nagano Shadowwalkers x 2
--> Here comes the Riflepower on ER where noone else than other snipers can shoot īem

Amaterasu
--> yes she recycles the Naganoīs with her healing...IF they are wounded through other snipers...., which are naturally killed first, because they can reach you ;-)

Hachiman Masadoka

Demon Hunter
Demon Hunter
--> and again two HMGīs, pretty hard to hit in cover with a Pool of a Nightīs Shadow....

AND on Top of that, you guess it already, dont you....:

Battlewalker x 2
Battlewalker x 2

Didnīt make the count but should fit into 1k of points. Perfectly legal and as deadly as it can get. Maximum effect without a blocked LOS or a restriction on range for spotting and hiiting.

And I wager they would win the VAoD. Thatīs 14 (!!) activations. They outmaneuver nearly every other force in activations....

Give it a thought.

This force doesnīt need any more support, but with an exchange of the two Hunters against another two Battlewalkers you can run and shoot...

[Dr. Nick]

if you would like to build a "max" army, i would just use grunts (4+1 of course )+many supports.

as i said, very possible, but not the idea.

if you would simpy limit the units to 2 it hinders it a lot!

-> i like it, but a) need to be either free willed not maxed or b) some more limitations..

but if you make the elites useful to buy support, that would motivate to include them, because you donīt loose most support-options, and that (use elites) makes the army much more flashy, cool and diverse!

i donīt have army builder here, but i think about something like:

1 AM
1 other elite, depending on style/situation

2 HI with sniper or other

1 unit orcas
1 GG

chars

i agree, the army is more powerful than "normal" but it is ballanced and working.
i like it because several interesting units not only many snipers or ICS.. (-> @ 3 hurricane: i would max to necrom+ perhaps rams..)

against this, eg.

2 ICS
2 Trencher
1 HW
2 NM
+x
+chars


see our battle reports (ok, the illian list is strange, but cyb and 2x im is nice):
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=3169.0
http://forum54.oli.us/index.php?topic=2749.0

[PhillySniper]

NoTroll

Its great that you think that more supports makes the game more fun for you. However the term SUPPORT means just that, to assist in battle. They way you have rewritten the rules makes them main combatants and NOT support. Off Board artillery COULD be made easier to call down but then it wouldnt be as effective and would be a game killer. The same with the support options. They could be made easier to bring in but them you might as well add them to the rest of the army liist.

I like the limit on support. It forces me to be creative if I want to bring alot more firepower. And that I think was the intention of the games designers. IMHO if you want nothing but heavy firepower, then the tactical aspect of the game might be getting lost somewhere.

One question, does the limit change for support affect specialists as well?  I mean do I get 3 Dragoons + Sgt to get a Spec? For example Can I get

9 Dragoons + Sgt + 3 Snipers
6 Jungle commandos + Sgt + 2 TRS Specs
1 Strike Skimmer
1 HMG Team?

[Goldwyrm]

I played 1st Edition for a short time after I got out of Rogue Trader and then 2nd Ed. 40K. Then I went into 2nd Edition Warzone.

Having played 1st Edition and owning those books I was already well exposed to the background fluff, but I can see how others would find 2nd Edition bland. At the time of release I'd made the same comments as an observation. Still, that wasn't a big deal for me.

I do understand as well the comments about the army book escalation with regards to Bauhaus and Capitol. I felt those two books leveled the field with those 2 corporations and the Dark Legion. I can see how the Brotherhood, Mishima, Imperial, and Cybertronic players could feel left behind. Target was unfortunately smacked down before they had a chance to address new books for those 4 which was really unfortunate. My group had started work on our own upgrades and somewhere I've got a framework forcelist for Cybertronic that I can't find now since it was probably 3-4 computers ago.

Various groups I've played with have had some discussions around close combat troops costing too many points and getting whacked too soon. However I really think that terrain plays a big factor in that.  One thing I had tried to hopefully balance that out was when I ran a Venus campaign with alternating strategic turns of night and daylight. So if players positioned themselves for a night attack they could take better advantage of their close combat troops. We fought a few large battles in that campaign but most games ended up being setup for daylight battles because that's how player's postured themselves on the campaign map.

My main gripe with 2nd Edition was since it had gone into being a unit game, I expected a bit more work around the vehicle rules.  I was somewhat disappointed in those. Just about everythig else about the game I loved.  Just a little cleaning up on minor things, some more optional equipment,  books for the other 4 armies, and sturdier vehicle rules would have me still playing it regularly. And an open points builder for creating things would have been icing on the cake.

[OLD Dwarf]

2nd Ed for my group just gutted the background.1st ed was great background
& really got us into the game.It also seemed that the 2nd Ed stats took the
individuality of the different corps & DP forces away.

On the plus side for 2nd Ed some of the reorganization of the DP forces made sense
so you could have rather balanced forces where as in 1St Ed The Lord of War was too dominate.

We now play mostly 1St Ed rules with some of the 2nED combined,we waited for UWZ but
just gave up on it & when it did come out decided to pass.

OD

[Dr. Nick]

They way you have rewritten the rules makes them main combatants and NOT support.

yes, that is true.
but to have 2~3 MHMG is not a game breaker..

even units like the hurricane die quite fast..
yes, they have 6 wounds and a mhmg, but they cost 112 P with RC 8 (+3 stop +3 SR) and -1 RC vs. HI

this is ~6 HI at 114 P

->HW SR (stop) (optimum) -> 9 shots at RC13 dam13 -> ~4,5 HI dead
->HW MR (stop) -> 6 shots at RC11 dam13 -> ~2,5 HI dead
->HW MR (move) -> 6 shots at RC8 dam13 -> <=2  HI dead

->HI SR/MR -> 18 shots at RC8 dam10 -> 2W

yes, the HI loose..
but, both sides have more support also!

it grades troops down, but not very much..  the second round the rest of the HI will likely make 1 more W and bind the HW 1 round more before dying. in this time you support can finish the walker...

or other way round...

I like the limit on support. It forces me to be creative if I want to bring alot more firepower.

why? you need more gunts... 6! to have 3 supports...

if you want nothing but heavy firepower, then the tactical aspect of the game might be getting lost somewhere.

as outlined abough, imho, its not..    

One question, does the limit change for support affect specialists as well?  I mean do I get 3 Dragoons + Sgt to get a Spec?

no? why? dragoons are grunts

i dont think its a good idea, but perhaps..

but to bring so many snipers in the game ??
i donīt like the mishima list, also..  

9 Dragoons + Sgt + 3 Snipers
6 Jungle commandos + Sgt + 2 TRS Specs
1 Strike Skimmer
1 HMG Team?

no, itīs two units -> 1 support (normally 0)

[PhillySniper]

Troll

One thing you dont take into accout is AR. Your math doesnt take that into account. The HW has 24 AR with a MHMG. The 6  HI have 19 AR? < I dont have my book handy>. So the HW is harder to kill with weapons that dont do as much DAM.

The other thing is that  with 6 HI I get 18 actions to the HW 3. Its gives the HI a tactical advantage to the HW firepower advantage.

And finally UWZ is supposed to be a SKIRMISH game. Not an all out full-scale war. That is why support is limited, vehicles are limited and troops are emphasized.

 

[Dr. Nick]

p.s.
no, this army is not permitted, sorry..  


1000 Pts  -   Bauhaus: Duke Richthausen Army  - MyStyle(c) - Vulcan Army of DOOM

2 x 4 Hussars @ 133 Pts
     AG-17 Panzerknacker AR
     1 Hussar Sgt @ [26] Pts
          HG-14 Hagulsturm Shotgun; MP-105 Machine Pistol
     1 Hussar FT @ [35] Pts
          Gehenna Puker Flamethrower; HG-12 Pistol

2 x 4 Vulkans @ 199 Pts
     Ironhand Pneumatic Fist; MG-90 Mounted HMG
     1 Vulkan Sgt @ [43] Pts
          Ironhand Pneumatic Fist; MG-90 Mounted HMG

2 Strike Skimmer @ 121 Pts
     MG-90 Mounted HMG

     3 Strike Kommando Skimmer Support @ [75] Pts
          Dagger; MP-103 Hellblazer SMG


1 Max Steiner @ 67 Pts
     AG-17 Panzerknacker AR; Laser Sight; GL-170 Under Barrel GL; Apex A12
     Smoke Grenade; PC-606 Hellstorm SMG

Total Army Cost: 998

   

[Dr. Nick]

Troll

One thing you dont take into accout is AR. Your math doesnt take that into account. The HW has 24 AR with a MHMG. The 6  HI have 19 AR? < I dont have my book handy>. So the HW is harder to kill with weapons that dont do as much DAM.

no, i figured that into the calculation!!

x0,75 for the 1-5 chance of the AR 18 vs Dam13..

The other thing is that  with 6 HI I get 18 actions to the HW 3. Its gives the HI a tactical advantage to the HW firepower advantage.

>HI SR/MR -> 18 shots at RC8 dam10 -> 2W

And finally UWZ is supposed to be a SKIRMISH game. Not an all out full-scale war. That is why support is limited, vehicles are limited and troops are emphasized.

without further limitation it encourages the use many small grunts.. of course if you limit yourself to 2~3 grunts 1~2 elits and 1 support, why not.. you get a unit more and a big (or two small) vehicle less..