Author Topic: Light Infantry Captain  (Read 19384 times)

Offline Jibbajabbawocky

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • Your Benevolent Dictator
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2005, 09:04:52 AM »
That's ok, besides, the Shotgun gives the squad a nasty close up surprise. :)
"You were engineered with such potential, Serpentor. But you lack the most important DNA of all... Mine!"
Homebase: Northern New Jersey
Ebay: Mokodoba

Offline Dragon62

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1893
  • Karma: +67/-0
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2005, 06:19:22 AM »
So the official answer is he doe'nt have the AR even though the point difference between the sgt. and captain in both ligth inf. and heavy inf. is 9pts with the HI Captain having both weapons.
Define Irony-A bunch of idiots dancing around on a plane to a song made famous by a band that died in a plane crash.

Homebase-New Jersey
Ebay-Dragondrake69

Offline PFC joe

  • Private First Class
  • Private First Class
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • Karma: +57/-2
  • assistance from a distance
    • PFC joe's After Action Reviews
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2005, 06:40:42 AM »
There is more at play in the nine points than just weapons.  The stats are completly different across the board.  The points just aren't there for an additional weapon.  Heck, if you really want to know,  the majority of the additional points are in the RC/CC and the extra wound (with emphasis on the extra wound).

So yes, the M-50 strapped to his side is only for show but you don't have to worry because it's not figured into the points cost.

-PFC joe
Qui desiderat pacem pręparet bellum

Offline Pietia

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Karma: +33/-5
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2005, 08:25:37 AM »
Joe is right. The LI captain with knife, shotgun and M-50 would be roughly 35 points (add 4 points for the rifle). Honestly, I'd prefer him this way. Capitol shotguns are so crappy... he really needs this rifle  (btw - he's paying for RC he does not really need...).

Offline Jibbajabbawocky

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • Your Benevolent Dictator
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2005, 08:29:34 AM »
I'm surprised Capitol doesn't have an Auto-shotgun... and saddened. :(
"You were engineered with such potential, Serpentor. But you lack the most important DNA of all... Mine!"
Homebase: Northern New Jersey
Ebay: Mokodoba

Offline PFC joe

  • Private First Class
  • Private First Class
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • Karma: +57/-2
  • assistance from a distance
    • PFC joe's After Action Reviews
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2005, 08:51:10 AM »
The high RC with a template weapon is in an effort to reduce min-maxing.  Other wise you can have some seriously unbalanced characters with high CC, incredibly low RC and a template lobber.  I'm still not entirely convinced that certain weapons don't have prerequisite associated stats, ie a minimum of 9 RC to equip an auto-shotgun (that is completely conjecture, I don't know one way or the other).

If you want to rationalize it, think of it as a required level of skill in order to utilize the unique properties of a flechette/sprayer weapon.

and capitol has always had the single and double barrel (over and under?!) shotguns.  It's just their thing.   ( I blame Target and thier weird European view on guns)

-PFC joe
Qui desiderat pacem pręparet bellum

Offline Jibbajabbawocky

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • Your Benevolent Dictator
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2005, 10:11:52 AM »
I totally agree with the high RC thing (Otherwise I could have an RC of 0 and auto-hit 4 people!).

"You were engineered with such potential, Serpentor. But you lack the most important DNA of all... Mine!"
Homebase: Northern New Jersey
Ebay: Mokodoba

Offline Pietia

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Karma: +33/-5
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2005, 10:50:57 AM »
If the price of the template lobber reflected this ability (autohitting 4 people while having RC 0), it would be ok (well, it might be ok now, shotguns seem to be more expensive than assault rifles in this game). The author of the point system obviously decided to use very simple (but not very efficient) approach - assign costs to items, abilities, statistics and try to somehow balance the cost and efficiency of units by giving them (often unnecessary, useless or overcosted*) stat levels, abilities and equipment (e.g. the "CC-only units with high RC" problem). It does not always work. But that's discussion for entirely different topic...

The big problem with Light Infantry Captain is the simple fact, that he's useless. His only asset is his cool model. Like other low-ranking Capitolian officers he has too poor LD to be purchased as a commander - Infantry Major is just 5 points more expensive and so much better in this role (especially as Tactical Sense provider, since he also has assault rifle and will do something useful besides giving orders). He's useless as combat individual in most circumstances with his short life expectancy (low AR) and low-damage small-template shotgun.

BTW - Target's view is not European view. It's simply Target's view.

* why overcosted? For example, 1 point of Fast Shot seems to cost more than 1 point of LD. Just compare Ducals and Freedom Brigades.

Offline Jibbajabbawocky

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • Your Benevolent Dictator
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2005, 11:12:41 AM »
Actually, I used a LI captain in a game the other week, and he is surprisingly good.  Not great, mind you, but good.  He survived well until the end of the game, mostly in HTH against Cartel agents.  he's worth the 30 points you spend on him... and thats about it.
"You were engineered with such potential, Serpentor. But you lack the most important DNA of all... Mine!"
Homebase: Northern New Jersey
Ebay: Mokodoba

Offline PFC joe

  • Private First Class
  • Private First Class
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • Karma: +57/-2
  • assistance from a distance
    • PFC joe's After Action Reviews
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2005, 11:20:08 AM »
He's a cheap officer that lends a little extra ooomphf to the Light Infantry squads.  He has a very good use, and that is as an officer for LI.
  He's LI, what do you expect him to do?  With the extra wound and slightly better armor, he can soak a bit of damage and keep the squad from panicing.  The LI Capt. also provides much needed CC support for the squad.  With his Bowie knife and decent CC he can meet most charges rather well.


This is not 40k.

other than specialized Personalities, Individuals are not whirling death machines walking the battlefield.

Officers primarily provide moral boosts or further tactical options.  The Infantry Colonel has the same load out, but you're not calling him useless.  They both serve the squads they are with and that's about it. 

-PFC joe
Qui desiderat pacem pręparet bellum

Offline Pietia

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Karma: +33/-5
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2005, 12:16:13 PM »
Colonel is actually very useful, but not because of his loadout. He's not a killer - he's walking Ini roll winner and moral support. The LI captain costs as much as two LI troopers, but is less useful than them - even against charges. His LD is 10 - Imperial Regulars are more corageous and have higher initiative than this guy. His Tactical Sense is useless (shotgun only, remember?) until you buy him Command Helmet and equip his team with Comm Links - at 3 points per grunt trooper you're not likely to to that.
I do not want him to be Space Marine Force Commander in disguise, but I want him to be a useful officer. He isn't one right now - at least against a competent opponent. It is difficult to even call him cheap - when you compare this guy to the Infantry Major (only 5 points more!) you can see, how pathetic the captain is.
Jibbajabbawocky - as for the captain "being surprisingly good" - an Undead Legionnaire of mine once killed a Demon Hunter that was 26" away in 2 shots. Are Undead Legionnaires surprisingly good, or was I simply very lucky?

Offline Jibbajabbawocky

  • Member Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
  • Karma: +35/-0
  • Your Benevolent Dictator
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2005, 04:49:03 PM »
although, now that you bring it up, I was making some really good rolls with the Captain...
"You were engineered with such potential, Serpentor. But you lack the most important DNA of all... Mine!"
Homebase: Northern New Jersey
Ebay: Mokodoba

Offline FrostWolf

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2005, 02:31:20 AM »
Well, there are some Modells in the Game which are a little bit ineffectiv. The LI Captain is a example. I dont want to point my finger on the units i use in my game and cry, but i think it is a good Discussion to throw this in.
There are many Units in the Game with Shotguns only, and most of them are not able to defend themselve in close Combat, because they have no CC- capable Weapons. And Shotguns have a very Short range, you know.
The LI Captain has a knife, that means that he is able to make attacks in CC, others do not.
With the existing Rule (in the FAQ) that your Models may NOT use their Weapon as a club and use their ST and CC to fight, many of the Shotgun- only carrying Models are, lets say, kicked in the ass. Come Close, shoot your Shotgun, be in CC. Yes, you may break from CC, but fire a template Weapon into the Group of your own Models and Enemys? No Way!
And even IF they may use their ST in CC - a damage of 4 in Close Combat is not really good.

Offline fuko

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2005, 02:45:29 AM »
The author of the point system obviously decided to use very simple (but not very efficient) approach - assign costs to items, abilities, statistics and try to somehow balance the cost and efficiency of units by giving them (often unnecessary, useless or overcosted*) stat levels, abilities and equipment (e.g. the "CC-only units with high RC" problem).

The same aplies to Bushido Samurai - they have 8 RC and no shooting weapon. And don't say anything about min-maxing - Machinators have 6 RC and are as good in CC (they are much tougher), and what is more look at Yorama monks - they have lower RC than Bushidos (7) and they have thrown weapons. So the unit which do not need RC at all have 8 RC ( not to mention it is completly against this unit fluff), and the unit which need RC have 7. I don't see any logic behind it.

There are others problems - like sergeants with shotguns in asault rifle eqiuped units - but these are harder to repair becouse of WYSIWIG.

Offline Pietia

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Karma: +33/-5
Re: Light Infantry Captain
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2005, 03:07:08 AM »
like sergeants with shotguns in asault rifle eqiuped units
...and chainsword-and-pistol armed sarges in some other units (like Brotherhood grunt squads)
...and sarges with tactical sense in grunt units armed with pistols (no problem with WYSIWYG here, but 2PCs are wasted on each one of them)