Author Topic: Tanks?  (Read 31931 times)

Steadfast

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2005, 03:21:21 AM »
On my side, I love the addition of heavy vehicles in an army, even for Warzone where some people frown to the idea of heavier machinery. I know that this might make the game needed to be furtherly modified for balance purposes, but I do not mind for it.

I would love the idea of a Mishiman Army based on Power Armoured Samurai, Meka Pilots and Heavy Battle Walkers, supported by few Ashigaru units as Light Infantry support. I'd definately get such an army.  ;D

How about those Crusader Main Battle Tanks of the Brotherhood Military?  :D

Capitol, Imperial or Bauhauss Armoured Cavalry Units, I just love these ideas.
Count me in for the Tanks thing.

Offline Pietia

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2005, 04:16:18 AM »
Guys, no tanks, please. If you want to have a tank at this scale - well, some of the fire missions have effects similar to those a tank main gun shot would have in this scale (as opposed to, say, bombs - which would obliberate half of the battlefield...), so just change the names of FMs. I'd say, that APCs, giant suits of armor, battlewalkers and other such light armored vehicles are the biggest and baddest units that may be supported by UWZ. Even that support is not that great - it is far too easy to kill such stuff with rifles, and the anti-tank weapons (like DLDs and standard rockets) is not always the best choice for hunting the big game (as they're expensive, inaccurate and do not deal much more damage than - say - HMG). It is an infantry game after all. Adding APCs and other light vehicles to armies that do not have them may be a good idea (although an APC-equipped Mishima force would be scary), but as for the heavy stuff: Just Say No.

As for a separate tank combat game: I think that EE is already doing so many different things, that starting development of yet another miniature system would not be a wise move. If you want to play such system, I'd advise you to take a look at either Mein Panzer or Modern Micro Armor - both have excellent game mechanics, well support infantry and mechanised units, and allow you to design your own hardware (as the necessary formulas were made public). Converting Warzone unverse units to either system should not be difficult, and both system work well with 1/300 miniatures - so it is easy to play HUGE battles with them (and there are many 1/300 scale minis on the market)

Offline Mojarn Piett

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2005, 04:47:39 AM »
I am well aware of the existence of such games. In fact, I happen to own Spearhead, Modern Spearhead, Panzer Marsch and  IABSM to name a few. But they are not the same thing.

I also have WWII skirmish games Battleground:WWII and Face of Battle. Both of which have rules for vehicles...  ;)

I am also aware that Excelsior should first get all the groundpounders out and I am sure the guys at Excelsior know that too.

Let me ask: if all the worldbooks and infantry minis were out, why would it hurt to have a separate armor supplement, with vehicle rules & AT weapons? It would be a completely separate plugin to be used, if wanted, or to be left out. It's always easier NOT to use something which exists than try to use something which does not exist.

Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2005, 05:22:17 AM »
I am well aware of the existence of such games. In fact, I happen to own Spearhead, Modern Spearhead, Panzer Marsch and  IABSM to name a few. But they are not the same thing.

I also have WWII skirmish games Battleground:WWII and Face of Battle. Both of which have rules for vehicles...  ;)

I am also aware that Excelsior should first get all the groundpounders out and I am sure the guys at Excelsior know that too.

Let me ask: if all the worldbooks and infantry minis were out, why would it hurt to have a separate armor supplement, with vehicle rules & AT weapons? It would be a completely separate plugin to be used, if wanted, or to be left out. It's always easier NOT to use something which exists than try to use something which does not exist.

After reading the posts on this both here and on the previous forums I had to reply. If you want tanks and armored vehicles...Come up with the rules yourself!!!! EE has done a great job of getting the game up and running and being incredible people who are supporting and refining a great game. WHy is is that people are never satified with what they have. IF you like the idea so much.. create units for each army<not just YOUR favorite army> playtest them, make sure they are balanced for gameplay, design and create the models for such pieces, answer any an all questions about gameplay-no matter how obvious the answer might be-, support an entire website with order capability, forums, pictures etc, go to just about every gaming convention to represent your "new" ideas etc. Oh wait a min thats aleardy being done by EE for a great SQUAD based skirmish game called UWZ.

I like the ideas of tanks and heavy weapons just like anyone else BUT this isnt the game for that. If you want to use those items find another game. Dont beg the folks at EE to indulge your "I want a game to be EVERYTHING at the same time" fantasies. UWZ is an incredibly detailed, fun to play, well balanced, simple to learn and play game. WHy make more work for guys that are busting their humps to get this going.

I apologise if that sounded like a rant but I just had to get that off my chest. Basically what Im saying is play and enjoy the game as it was meant to be played and lets not keep trying to" fix" it.
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Offline Pietia

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2005, 05:33:19 AM »
Let me ask: if all the worldbooks and infantry minis were out, why would it hurt to have a separate armor supplement,
Oh.. at that moment... no problem for me - I won't live THAT long (no offence meant EE guys ;-) , I know that you're a small company).
It's always easier NOT to use something which exists than try to use something which does not exist.
I'm not sure about that - try to convince anybody not to use his best stuff IF he bought and painted it.

Offline Goldwyrm

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2005, 07:19:01 AM »
My impression is that some of us think of tanks and vehicles as something that would be "nice to have" not a "must have".  Others don't like tanks and have voiced their opinion very well without attacking the people with a different opinion. All opinions are just that..opinions.

@PhillySniper- Why choose to attack the people, on top of debating their opinions that you don't agree with? It's bad form.

Offline TwoGunBob

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2005, 08:32:59 AM »
That's the thing, everyone wants something different out of a wargame. Some people are more treadheads than others same as some people love a system that lavishes on detail and others prefer more abstract systems. It's all about taste and Warzone can accomadate it sooner or later.
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Offline T Prime

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2005, 08:50:51 AM »
For my part, we plan on the following.

As for larger vehicles, we are going to release some APC's. Barring those, we plan to focus most of our efforts on mortars, small attack crafts as in the book and larger field munitions. Of course Mekas, and walkers are included in that.

The larger tanks are not planned at this time, though they would make for get displays....
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Offline zebuleon

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2005, 09:20:45 AM »
There already exists rules that will work for tanks.  There is really no need to create a whole new system or any kind of major rebalancing either.  Plus there are plenty of examples of potential light tanks, the bio-gaint for one.  Heck the guns for the DL Ironclad already exist in game, Nazgaroth's and Hellblaster. Give something for the Blitzers to fight.  They already have Anti-tank mines.  just add another specialist to the grunt squads that can carry an anti-tank weapon and boom no more worries.

People keep refering to warzone like it was designed to be played like necromunda.  It may be squad based but you definitely play with more than one squad, and thus a tank could be squad.  It may be a skirmish game but if Fire missions and artillery already exist in game why not a few tanks.  If this game was an infantry only based game then more than half the support units and some elite units wouldn't be available.

Its always nice to have something official to play with. Thats why house rules stay in the house.  It would be no more difficult to come up with tanks than it would be to come up with a new infantry unit that was different from the hundred others.

Offline Ruther

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2005, 10:23:28 AM »
Well obviously Excelsior sees no need for MBT's dominating the battlefield  ::)

Using APC's and smaller Crafts as E.Prime mentioned is a different (and the right) aproach and will most likly improve the game.
There is a diffrence between enhancing game mechanics and breaking it and it looks like UWZ will go the right path  ;D

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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2005, 01:00:09 PM »
My impression is that some of us think of tanks and vehicles as something that would be "nice to have" not a "must have".  Others don't like tanks and have voiced their opinion very well without attacking the people with a different opinion. All opinions are just that..opinions.

@PhillySniper- Why choose to attack the people, on top of debating their opinions that you don't agree with? It's bad form.

How is it bad form to venture my opinion as other have on things they believe in?  I wasnt "attacking" the people that desire tanks. I was voicing my displeasure with the people that think that EE should stop everthing else and get "tanks" into the game. I truely feel that if you want something bad enough, do something about it. I was also stating that people dont realise the work that is required to install "new" units into a game such as UWZ. 
Opinions are just that, opinions, I have mine and you have yours. My problem with the whole "tanks" situation is the people that say" EE can you do this? I just HAVE to ahve it or my gaming experience isnt  complete and BTW when is this model gonna be out I HAVE to have that too. I respect the work and time put into the game as well as the game itself. If you took that as me attacking others for their opinions, then I apologise but as others did I stated my feelings and tried to come up with a solution. Isnt that what the forum is for?? I didnt call anyone stupid or anything insulting. I felt I was stating an "opinion". House rules are there for people that want to tinker with the game and make it more to their liking.  If you want tanks in a game give us some ideas of how house rules work so others can try it but I dont think making it a permanate part of the game would make UWZ any better or worse as a system.
Again this is my opinion, which I am intitled to.


BTW how is what I did any different than what you just did GOLD by voicing your displeasure with how I phrased my opinion? Just curious

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Offline Goldwyrm

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2005, 07:04:18 PM »

After reading the posts on this both here and on the previous forums I had to reply. If you want tanks and armored vehicles...Come up with the rules yourself!!!! EE has done a great job of getting the game up and running and being incredible people who are supporting and refining a great game. WHy is is that people are never satified with what they have. IF you like the idea so much.. create units for each army<not just YOUR favorite army> playtest them, make sure they are balanced for gameplay, design and create the models for such pieces, answer any an all questions about gameplay-no matter how obvious the answer might be-, support an entire website with order capability, forums, pictures etc, go to just about every gaming convention to represent your "new" ideas etc. Oh wait a min thats aleardy being done by EE for a great SQUAD based skirmish game called UWZ.

I like the ideas of tanks and heavy weapons just like anyone else BUT this isnt the game for that. If you want to use those items find another game. Dont beg the folks at EE to indulge your "I want a game to be EVERYTHING at the same time" fantasies. UWZ is an incredibly detailed, fun to play, well balanced, simple to learn and play game. WHy make more work for guys that are busting their humps to get this going.

I apologise if that sounded like a rant but I just had to get that off my chest. Basically what Im saying is play and enjoy the game as it was meant to be played and lets not keep trying to" fix" it.

PhillySniper, My observation on the sum of what you had written earlier (quoted above) is you're saying/insinuating that people who would like to see tanks in Warzone are whiners bugging EE, don't respect the amount of work it takes EE to produce the game and should go make their own game. Your word choice, use of punctuation and caps gives me that impression. That is different than sharing your opinion that the game is not well suited for vehicles because of X, Y, and Z game mechanics. You of course are entitled to your opinion of people but it is really a separate issue from the discussion of tanks or other vehicles in the game.  I'm going to leave it at that. Aside from our exchange this topic on vehicles has been an interesting discussion and I don't wish to unravel the dialogue.

Offline MadBrad

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2005, 07:38:40 PM »
Tanks....I love em!  I want one.  A Panzer 4G would be nice.  I could put it in my backyard, and threaten the neighbors!

(Bet they would keep that yapping mutt indoors, too!)

However, tanks in UWZ would probably be a huge imbalance.  The scale of even an 8x8 table would not do justice to the weaponry of a tank. 

As for large battles....It has been my experience that UWZ breaks down when one side has a larger number of units than the other side.  The unit imbalance seems to lead to "activation explits".  In a nutshell, one side moves units well out of the field of fire, and the side with fewer units is "forced" to activate units.  After which, the side with more units can activate the units that were in the field of fire.

I like 500 to 750 point battles, and I think tanks would look great, but unbalance the game. 

I promised Thom I would design a 10MM Warzone rules system....I better start writing!   :D

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Offline Goldwyrm

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2005, 07:57:43 PM »
 I agree that a big tank would be difficult to balance in a rock paper scissors way while still keeping some semblance of balance in a tournament style game where the other player's force and terrain are not factored in.

I think the best use of large tanks in Warzone is for scenario play.

Take the Bauhaus Grizzly. Most of its weapons are squad killers.  However just like a WWII or modern tank is vulnerable in some environments, so too the Grizzly tank.  Imagine a Grizzly used in an urban battle as a mobile bunker/siege mortar. A force is infiltrated across enemy lines to take out this weapon before it reduces the defenders fortifications to rubble. Imagine a night time battle and a small detachment of hussars and dragoons guarding the Grizzly as it fires all night long from its hull down position behind or in a ruined factory. The infiltrators have surprise and the reduced crew on night shift are not immediately manning the anti-personnel turrets. The main guns and mortars would be unable to fire in such close range and it would take time to get the tank moving, time the crew doesn't have when the enemy are in the darkness and potentially everywhere. The vehicle also has many blindspots and spotting is difficult.  So the infiltrating force must fight through a small number of external guards, stay out of the way of or destroy the turret mounted HMGs and then set charges to destroy the vehicle from outside or close assault the crew to sabotage the main guns from the inside.

Offline Topkick

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Re: Tanks?
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2005, 08:03:53 PM »
In To Hell And Back Audie Murphy related the time a Panzer lost a track and blocked a key road. The fields were muddy so Murphy and his guys had to keep the Germans from replacing the tread under cover of darkness. Failure meant the 3rd Division would get rolled over b the Germans at first light. Definately grounds for a good scenario.
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