Author Topic: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.  (Read 8821 times)

Offline UrbanShocker

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Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« on: November 02, 2005, 09:49:09 PM »
The other day as I was preparing any army list I came across sometime that puzzled me.

In the sniper rifle section it list the four options you get as load outs.
Data scope, tripod/bipod, range scope and ghille suit.  And for most rifles you can only get one of them at time which i have no problem with and can easily see the potential to do some ugly things with the sniper rifle if all them where allowed at the same time. Which is why I can see why there isn't more allowed.

The question that I have is what does having a guille suit have to with the loadouts on a sniper rifle?  From my understanding of ghille suits is that they don't have anything to do with the sniper rifle itself. It seems to me that they are two seperate things.  I sure it won't happen anytime soon.  But does anybody have any ideas or thoughts  about possibly spitling the sniper rifle loadouts and the ghille suits into two seperate catorgies for purchusing purposes?

Offline LAWwaldo

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2005, 10:04:30 PM »
   Well typically the gun is camoflauged itself when using a Ghille suit (look at the dragoon sniper model).  However, I think the reasoning behind this is that they want to limit the amount of upgrades snipers can have, rather than dividing it between gun and other equipment (since the Ghille suit is the only reasonable other piece of equipment that doesnt go on the gun).  It's just there way of saying your sniper can either have a Ghille suit or a bi-pod, not both (well unless your a Mishima sniper...)
"Life is tough; it's even tougher when your stupid." - John Wayne

Timthetekron

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2005, 09:41:11 PM »
...I think it would be a good idea to assign point values to each individual item that are in a loadout. That way, you can get what your willing to purchase. Loadouts are a cool idea as a purchasing indicater/limiter but it needs something like a point value assigned to items within itself to allow the options a game like this deserves. Why not use what worked for 1st edition so well? Sorry, but if I want to gear-up a sniper with all possible equipment they are allowed to carry and am willing to pay for it all, that is an option that should clearly be available...if it ain't happening officially, don't let that stop you from enjoying this game for all it's worth, just come up with your own ideas to make it work and play the way you want.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2005, 03:59:38 PM »
That's all well and good for "house" games, but the reason this version works so well is that it is all balanced.  Being able to load out a model with everything based on a static PC could lead to imbalancing.  Take night vision, for example.

It akes at least 25 points to outfit a small squad with it.  However, a squad of three Vulkans can take it for a mere 15 points.  That dramatically changes their effectiveness in night fights and other dark environs.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2005, 07:09:49 AM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Timthetekron

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2005, 05:49:19 AM »
...In 1st edition a player can purchase a BIPOD for 2 points: (casualties of war p.18); a CHAMELEON OVERSUIT for 5 points: (warzone p.112); and a LASER SIGHT for 7 points: (warzone p.112) - (lets just say its close enough to a SCOPE). So, if I understand correctly, a sniper in 1st edition warzone could be equiped with a BIPOD, a CHAMELEON OVERSUIT, and a LASER SIGHT...but in ultimate warzone they cannot be equiped with them all, like any normal sniper would be? - and yet EE just released a BAUHAUS SNIPER mini which is equiped with a BIPOD, a GHUILLESUIT, and a SCOPE...any reason why I can buy a cool warzone mini but not have it fully realised in the rules?...I mean your joking about not allowing (for example) a sniper to have a bipod, a ghuillesuit, and a scope all at once for the sake of "game balance" right?...that as you said: "being able to load out a model with everything based on a static PC could lead to imbalancing." I mean do you realise what your saying? That I as a player acording to ultimate warzone and for the sake of "game balance"cannot equip a sniper (for example) with a BIPOD, a GHUILLESUIT, and a SCOPE all at the same time?...even though you have a new mini with all three and the fluff (let alone real life examples) supports the contrary? Are you also saying having points for equipment like in 1st edition is the same as "house" games, in the sense it is not good enough? - because I dont think I need to tell everyone how wildly popular it was and the reasons it was, but for clarity I will - that point system allowed those models to come to life in a way that this edition does not. Anyway, some of the "loadouts" in ultimate are not even close to being true ...sorry, but if you think Im going to play along with stuff like the BELZARACH not being allowed a BAYONET as a loadout, when numerous illustrations and minis clearly show it does I can only say that is a game I will not play.

Offline PFC joe

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2005, 05:59:42 AM »
uhm..


the Belzarach already has the Bayonet figured into it's stats line.  It's one of only two rifles that does't have a penalty to hit in CC.  The other being the Yari Shogun AR.

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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2005, 07:13:18 AM »
I am saying that in Tourneys, the rules are the final arbiter, and the rules specifically state that the Bauhaus sniper rifle cannot take any loadouts. Any opponent you may face in the tourney who has used the book to design their army would be sure to let you know that you cannot do so, and would ask that you remove them from your army as they would not be allowed in the tourney.

As for my opinion as to why is it not allowed, I have stated such and stand behind it.  If EE sees fit to change the rules to accomodate, I am for it, being a Bauhaus player.  All I am saying is that I understand the justification as it stands now.  Nothing more - nothing less.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2005, 07:14:57 AM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Timthetekron

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2005, 01:23:10 AM »
...but as it stands in ultimate I have no option to have a belzarach without a bayonet - as you pointed out, it is automatically equiped with one and the cost figured into it's stat line. My point was why not have the bayonet listed as a loadout and with a price for it. If you want one, buy it - if not, don't. (Not all Belzarachs are equiped with bayonets - "it usually has the dreaded sectioner bayonet attached" _  Algeroth RPG sourcebook p.54), and there are illustrations showing ones without them. Same thing for all other loadouts, they would all have a cost and whatever ones you want you pay for. You could also have a "tournament" specific limit within each loadout.

Example:
                _BELZARACH_

                LOADOUTS: sectioner bayonet / bioscope
                                                                     
                TOURNAMENT LOADOUT LIMITS: (one) 1
 
Please note this is a suggestion and any sour tone of mine about this issue is not intended to be directed at anyone and if it is taken that way, I apologise.

Offline PFC joe

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2005, 02:27:30 AM »
The cost for the already included Bayonet on the Belzarach is a negigble increase over the the standard AR.  The only thing missing is a line in the Fluff description saying to stay away from the pointy end.  Honestly, I've always seen the Belzarach with an attached Sectioner and woulda been more upset had it been left off. 

(i'm having trouble finding a Belzarach figure that doesn't have a modeled bayo of some sort....
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Timthetekron

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2005, 01:54:21 PM »
...*one adam 12, see the belzarach without a sectioner bayonet on page 61 in Warzone 1st edition"*...the artist could have forgotten to paint one on but the fact that it is a sectioner "bayonet"...well, all I'm saying is I think it should be optional to equip 'em with one or not as the player chooses or Tourney rules dictate...and the player should have such options with other stuff. "game balance" is maintained by the stuff having a point value (more or less) - like in 1st edition. If the players willing to purchase the stuff, they should be allowed to, and to have a complete selection to choose from. Oh well, now I'm boring myself to tears so I'll close my piehole about this subject. ;D

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Ghille suits and other sniper loadouts.
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 02:42:35 PM »
I see a few mentioning other editions.  Am I reading too much into this, or are people still using these rules?  This is Ultimate Warzone and has been revamped from the prvious editions (much for the better, IMHO, though I never played 1st ed.).

Forgive me if I am beating the dead horse, but I am not getting the discrepancy.  The rules are for balance, and fluff is not.  Once you tweak something, others must be tweaked to balaance....where doas it end?

Again, I am speaking from an official tourney standpoint, and appreciate that there are those who enjoy playing house rules and variations outside of that arena.  I am not saying that you should never do that.  I am saying that if I come up against an illegal army and/or loadout in a tourney, I will ask the player to amend their force to make the game fair.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!