Using a Wait

[Dragon62]

Several times at Talamania this weekend I saw people use their wait counters during their own turn. opponent has gone and on their turn had a squad on wait rolled to use their waits then activated to same squad hense giving squad members 4 actions. I was under the impression that you use waits to react to your opponent and cant find anyware in the book or FAQ's that says differently. I've been wrong in the pass on several things thats why i'am asking now for a clarification to when a wait can be used. On page 44 under 6.2.10 Wait it says "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, by expending the wait counter at any time by declaring that it is interrupting another model's current action to preform one of the following actions:Countercharge,firing,brace,withdrawl, and dive for cover."  No where do I see turning your own turn you can use the waits and then activate squad.

[Topkick]

I also thought wait had to be reactive. I never noticed the practice this weekend but admittedly I spent more time visiting than playing 

[dmcgee1]

Several times at Talamania this weekend I saw people use their wait counters during their own turn. opponent has gone and on their turn had a squad on wait rolled to use their waits then activated to same squad hense giving squad members 4 actions. I was under the impression that you use waits to react to your opponent and cant find anyware in the book or FAQ's that says differently. I've been wrong in the pass on several things thats why i'am asking now for a clarification to when a wait can be used. On page 44 under 6.2.10 Wait it says "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, by expending the wait counter at any time by declaring that it is interrupting another model's current action to preform one of the following actions:Countercharge,firing,brace,withdrawl, and dive for cover."  No where do I see turning your own turn you can use the waits and then activate squad.

Wait AC's may be used at any time, except during the activation of the model on Wait.

According to p. 44, under 6.2.10 - WAIT:  ...A model that has Actions left in its turn may expend all remaining Actions to go on Wait.  Place a Wait counter beside the Waiting model, which will remain until the model is next activated.

It does say that, "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, by expending the wait counter at any time by declaring that it is interrupting another model's current action to preform one of the following actions:Countercharge,firing,brace,withdrawl, and dive for cover."  What this means is that a model may react to an enemy's actions by interrupting their current action.  However, the Wait (or Ambush) action may be used after the enemy performs AC's.  A model may not spend its Wait AC during its activation.

[Dragon62]

Maybe i'am not reading right but where does it say at anytime other then where it is used as a reaction. I see no wording that would allow a squad on wait after an opponent has finished his activation and it is now your turn to activate to use the wait actions and then activate the same squad. I understand a wait last until the models are next activated but in all 3 editions wait was an interupt to what the opponent was doing.*IMHO if it's your turn and you choose to use a wait that would be activating that squad hense the wait is gone and the model would only have its normal actions. Added after post*

[dmcgee1]

You posted it, Phil...

On page 44 under 6.2.10 Wait it says "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, ...

**edit:  Further, say, for example, that you have just completed activating your unit, and I wish to use a Wait AC from a squad that has already activated and placed an AC on Wait.  Are you saying that, in your opinion, I cannot?  What if the model on Wait has not, this turn, yet, activated?  Can I not use its Wait after you move, then activate a separate unit?  The same principle would apply, in my opinion, to any unit.  Therefore, I could use a Wait AC, then activate the unit, immediately after resolution of the Wait AC.  This is how I see it.  Anybody else see it like Phil, me, or any other way?     **

[wmeredith]

Hello

So the real crux question IS can a model and or unit use it's wait action WITHOUT reacting to an opponents action and then activate. Thus in essence having four activations or only come off wait when reacting meaning countercharge, defensive fire, and or duck for cover.

wmeredith.

[Dragon62]

That refers to interrupting your opponent and going turning his turn not yours. And it says react to opponents model hense its an interrupt. Nowhere does it imply you can during your turn take a squad you have on wait use the waits then active the squad. Once you do anything with the squad your activating it and waits are lost.

[dmcgee1]

The crux is in two of the statements in the rules;  the one that states that, "Place a Wait counter beside the Waiting model, which will remain until the model is next activated," and the one which states, "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, ..."

** edit:  Read Firing From Wait **

[dmcgee1]

That refers to interrupting your opponent and going turning his turn not yours. And it says react to opponents model hense its an interrupt. Nowhere does it imply you can during your turn take a squad you have on wait use the waits then active the squad. Once you do anything with the squad your activating it and waits are lost.

All that the rules are stating, here, is that you may interrupt the opponent's normal sequence - it does not say that you must use Wait to react - merely that you may interrupt the enemy's AC.

[Dragon62]

My problem here is that if its your turn to go, It's your turn to activate,  any unit you do anything with is an activation hense you would lose any waits your squad has.

[dmcgee1]

Some questions to ponder, followed by a few examples:

Question 1:  When must a model on Wait be reactive?

The rules do not say.  Does that mean that we interpret reactive as the first model that activates within LOS of the Unit on Wait?
Must we react to its first AC?
Its last?
Any in between?

If we must react to its first AC, this seems to indicate that the Unit on Wait will fire at the first thing that moves, and wouldn't even need to make an LD check to do so.

If we are allowed to Wait until it has completed its last AC, then the unit should have the perogitive to Wait until it sees fit to use the Wait AC, if at all.

According to the rules, a model's Wait Counter remains until its next activation.  To me, this means that the model may hold that AC until such a time as the model wishes to attmept to use it.  Therefore, a model on Wait may wait until a model is charging it to perform an AC to defend itself, or until a rocket is about to blow up between his legs and attempt to dive for cover, wait until the paradeploying Stalkers drop in behind it, or wait until none of that happens, and fire at the hapless bogey left standing as a target by his squadmates.

Question 2:  Why do we choose to read this rules as "must be reactive," when it states that the model "may" use the wait AC?

Under normal circumstances, the argument is either "must" or "may."  Therefore, in lieu of the rules stating that the Wait AC must be used as a reactive move, I believe that we should read it as it may be a reactive move, allowing the model to interrupt the normal turn of an enemy model.

jjdodger positied to me that the rule is open to abuse.  I do not see how.  Phil states that this, in effect gives the model 4 AC's (an extra AC for an AC 3 model).  Not true.  In fact, there is a good chance that the AC(s) placed on Wait may be wasted as there might be nothing to do with them.  The AC was spent by sacrificing one or more AC's on the last activation, and may be used before the next time that that model activates, according to the rules.  Nowhere does it states that it must be used to react to the enemy.

For those that believe that it must be a reaction to an enemy model, technically, any AC from Wait spent to perform some AC would, indeed, be a reaction to an enemy AC, no matter when it happened.  Nowhere does it say when the model on Wait has to react to the enemy.  The entire squad may have, indeed, activated, and activated again, in the next turn, before the Wait is spent.

I cannot see it another way.  If I am missing something, please, enlighten me.  I freely admit that I may be wrong, but I do believe that I am interpreting this correctly. 

[dmcgee1]

The whole purpose of Wait is to spend at least one AC to reserve that AC to use in a tactically advantageous moment.

Let's say I have an unactivated squad in front of an enemy unit that is on Wait.  I choose, instead, to activate a unit that is farther away from the squad on Wait.  The squad on Wait cannot react to the farther squad, due to target priority.  It must fire at the closer unit, according to the rules.  I cannot Tac-sense from Wait, nor can I Aim from Wait, rendering a sniper's Tac-sense unusable.  This makes no sense, especially if the two enemy units are the  only ones left on the board.  If the squad on Wait wishes to fire at the closer enemy, it should be allowed to do so.

It should not matter when a model uses its Wait AC.  It has already paid for by going on Wait for the cost of one or more AC's.  It is not giving a model extra AC's.  If it uses it in the sense that Phil describes, it still gets an additional AC before it activates.  It is entitled to it by having placed the AC on Wait.  It is not allowed to Move with that AC - only the AC's allowed by Wait are allowed to be used.

[Dragon62]

Dave to your question #1 and the following post both topics are reactive action which there is no arguing about that. The advantage of wait is as models out of line of sight or behind cover for firing purposes move into a better spot to be attacked. The abuse that i'am taking about and maybe what Jeff was talking about is that on your turn a sqaud on wait under what your saying can activat twice, once using wait and then normal activation. I know you have to make a LD test but there is a chance maybe small but still a chance they all could pass. Also this may be a grey area to you but remember this book is filled with mistakes. In both 1st and 2nd edition the rules clearly state a wait can only be used to react to an opponents models action I feel the intent is the same just the wording may be off enough for you to take it to mean what you do.

[dmcgee1]

Allow me to ask, Phil - when must I react to another enemy model if I am going to use a Wait AC?

[Dragon62]

Before the units last models last action is finished. Once the unit is finished its your turn. Once its your turn the next action you do is an activation. It may sound stupid because you can still attack the same squad. It does stop a player from placing his entire army on wait and then on his turn letting his entire army use his waits and then activate his 1st squad.