shock troops confusion

[PhillySniper]

Im not saying that they dont have their uses. Im just saying that I got better results with infiltrators than I ever got from paradeploy. The randomness of the paradeploy SA makes the points used in a squad, more often than not, better used elsewhere. Especially on a  terrain heavy board. Not knowing what the board is going to be like when you are designing a force, chosing to rely on a paradeploying unit can put you ate a serious tactical advantage. If you cant deply them, then you have to use them as regular troops. I can think of better uses for the pts. But heaven help your opponent if you have them and there is an area you can drop them into and cause havok!!!

[Dr. Nick]

you can make a flawed unit better by supporting it.. BUT

- more enhancements will push their cost sky high (what is actually fitting..)

- how do you bring down smoke? with a mortar? -> a mortar support to support a weak PD unit?
i know they have smoke grenades, but just lvl2 and they need actions to use them with RC 9..

- terrain IS to dense for PD in most wz games. the distance of the target point to terrain does prevent most locations, and the derivation of 1-10 (i remember?) is very risky -> hit terrain ->dead

- their weapon is a joke.. 6´ and after that a bad pistol...

@Romanov BL: their weapon is FAAR better (SR*2 and Dam 9)

of course you could take the captain, but then, eg.

1 Shock Trooper Captain @ 48 Pts

4+1sgt+1chemsp Shock Troopers @ 215 Pts

vs.

1 Chasseur Captain @ 35 Pts
Laser Optic Gun Sight

7+1sgt+1hmg+1sniper Chasseurs @ 223 Pts
Pin-Point Weapon Enhancemnt

--> if PD would be more "shocking" (hard hitting and reliable) it would be worth it. if not, infiltration or just shooting is imho better

(esp. cybertronic, attilas are also always better..

3 Attila Cuirassiers +   1 Scorpion Launcher (Anti-Personnel Rockets) @ 219 Pts
Squad Comm Link

)

[dmcgee1]

You raise valid points, Aldrien.  To me, aradeploy works just fine.  I like to PD troops in just for surprise, or to exploit a weakness.  I have used them, successfully, on a number of occassions, and have been boned by using the tactic.

While I cannot argue the numbers you presented (they are well-thought), I can say that in terms of fun and game-oplay, PD is a good choice.  When I play outside of a tournament, it is about the fun.  It is not, always, about the win.

However, were I to go for the win, your number comparisons are right on the money, and give one something to consider.

[Archer]

You raise valid points, Aldrien.  To me, aradeploy works just fine.  I like to PD troops in just for surprise, or to exploit a weakness.  I have used them, successfully, on a number of occassions, and have been boned by using the tactic.

While I cannot argue the numbers you presented (they are well-thought), I can say that in terms of fun and game-oplay, PD is a good choice.  When I play outside of a tournament, it is about the fun.  It is not, always, about the win.

However, were I to go for the win, your number comparisons are right on the money, and give one something to consider.

Indeed...

  the stuff he wrote is something to consider... but then, I have found that Paras overall shock value to be very useful- sometimes more useful than a unit of rifles.

  I have used my Shocktroopers a total of four times... and have achieved a 50/50 ratio of good use versus poor performance- and one of those poor performances was my stinking up the joint tactically (does happen!) and the other a complete and utter bone-ing by the dice.

  Would I continue to use them?  Yep... and I'd take my lumps when they pull a T.O and decide to mail it in, performance-wise.

BTW-  The Chem sprayer model can be rep'd by the Captain model; just paint the puker Green.

[dmcgee1]

- how do you bring down smoke? with a mortar? -> a mortar support to support a weak PD unit?
i know they have smoke grenades, but just lvl2 and they need actions to use them with RC 9..

Those smoke grenades only need to be marginally successful.  A full squad of shock troopers will land approximately 4 Troopers with at least one AC, each, and the odds further say that at least one will land with 2 AC to use.  The others will be prone, captured/killed, or sans grenade.  That's 5 smoke grenades at RC 9 (6 if you give the Sgt smoke loadout for his UBGL).  2 smokes should suffice, and odds say that 3 will be deployed successfully.  That is now a -4 for the Shock Troops to be hit, including landing in MP (not prone).  The force, being harder to hit, is more survivable, because you can't wound what you don't hit.  Combine their 21 AR with Steel Skin, and survivability further increases.

Their weapons become very good at this proximity.  Take Optic Enhancement for +1 for firing through the Level 2 smoke, or (if you feel like spending the points) Night Vision, and they suffer no penalty for firing through the smoke.

Granted, dice are fickle, and bad things can happen.  The reverse is, also, true.

[Dr. Nick]

well, i agree, if you get the -4 incl. MP it is ok

BUT

- they have 6´weapons. beeing in MP is only so good.. 1-10 derivation -> few targets/effective shooting

- 6+2+1 incl. SS & OE runs 285 P... a full unit  of 8+3+1 382 P !


lets assume you have 10 HI next round (a lot, but no specialist in example)

lets say 30 shots at 4 -> 6 hits -> 2 to 3 dead shocktroopers.
(no aiming may be more effective, perhaps..)


if you want to maintain smoke your shocktroopers only have 2 A
-> 18(x2) shots at 8 (smoke) -> 14 hits -> 7 dead
(may be more due to speacial weapons, if in range and not dead/prone, lets say 9)

sounds good, but this is only at 6´ and if all shocktroopers shoot !
i bet after 1 or 2 HI they are no more in PB

- some dead or far away -> lets say 9-3 dead = 6
- some out of (effective) range after some kills -> lets say 4 dead HI

things go down from then. they need to stand up, move and smoke for 1 round -> no attack or no smoke

6+2+1 ST
-- they come down, land, prone, etc. and kill 2-3 HI on their round down
(captian would boost this, of course, but so would any enemy shotgun/hmg char close to shocktroopers)
> 3 dead from waiting troops or bad jumps
3+2+1

then loose 2 shocktroopers to 7-8 HI 1+2+1
next round some stand up, some shooting, perhaps 2 HI dead
5-6 HI kill 1-2 ST and then its really up to range..
there should be no models very close to the ST now, so they loose again actions to moving

all this at 190 P opposing force..

of course, a cluster of HI with 2-3 shocktroopers landing in 6´ with 2 A will get some seriouse damage, but the return fire (from other units) will wipe them out. just one better HMG in 6-12´will shread them. shotguns are not mentioned..

(btw: 1! minimal squad of ics agents killed 4+1 mashinator mkII+ablative armor in last game... uuuh do you want ST in mp in 12´of a RC9-11 HMG?)
.
.
.

don´t get me wrong, i think they are cool and all, but the shocktropers and paradeploy rules don´t cut it, imho..

perhaps if mortars where more easy to get and 12´shooting ... but since this is about shocktroopers -> no good, just cool (style over substance)

cu´s


p.s. same goes for reavers. cool but no meat and no fish. good shooting+good CC+good armor+1 W


*edit:
@Dragon62

i disagree about the quality!  the romanvo blitzers are great, for example. FT or RL with 12´2XS9 guns..
all at 25 P
no smoke, but they shoot more and loose less actions to move into range! (or shoot 1atS8...)

even better perhaps BB because camo2 (MP is cover and then AR with longer range, derivation less bad)

the shotgun guys are again very risky.. but just 1 stormtrencher landing good with 2 A is very sweet...


i would perhaps also take the LMG (basic romanov weapon....) just range and shots. no risks with FT and derivation..

[Dragon62]

As far as Para-deploy units Shock troopers are 1 of the best , with 2 enhancements Steelskin for AR-22 and Cell-link giving them a 10 inch command distance. I would go with 2 LMG specialist instead of Chem-sprayer since CS fires only once per turn.

[dmcgee1]

One day, Aldrien, you and I will get to play each other.  I look forward to the day, as I can only imagine that it will be fun.  Cheers!

[Veez]

Sounds like they are good, but mainly with enhancements rather than off the shelf.

[Topkick]

Sounds like they are good, but mainly with enhancements rather than off the shelf.

After 3 years at Ft Bragg I can categorically state that the Dirt Darts are anything but "Off the Shelf". 

[Veez]

I imagine Cybertronic goes through a lot of Kneed Enhancements with those guys.  I could use a set myself-I was never designed to do all of this running.

[Archer]

One day, Aldrien, you and I will get to play each other.  I look forward to the day, as I can only imagine that it will be fun.  Cheers!

What I find funny....

  The both of you can be accountants.  Aldrien is a bit more open about it though... and Dave, you only let the accountant out when you are fustrated over something not working...

For your education Aldrien, accountant-players are the ones that massge the numbers looking for the most effective expenditure of points in an army so it does maximum carnage for the points.  And they tend to have at least three backup lists that do almost/exactly the same amount of carnage for the points.

  There is nothing wrong with that style of play, if that is what makes ya happy.  It's possible to be fluffy while doing so too... but difficult with most armies.

  Sometimes, its just fun to throw some armies together based on nothing but fluff and sling some dice.  It's how the Machinator Army of mine got started as well as the Rangers Forward list I use.

  I know Dave's old imperial list was a mix of bang for the buck and fluff (damn infiltrators and paras; what a mess)...  I know the list he intends on throwing at my swords when next we play will be a very well thought out, effective and somewhat story driven list ("Ve vill destroy doz Toasters with Zuperior Bauhaus Feuerkraft..."  which should be cool to play.

  Remember man... it's not always about the numbers- its about having fun despite how efficient/effective the list is.  I managed to get that through CKGeist's skull...

[Dr. Nick]

  The both of you can be accountants.  Aldrien is a bit more open about it though... and Dave, you only let the accountant out when you are fustrated over something not working...

there is a simple explanation for this: i can play with armybuilder and rarely play.

for there games i construct lists. btw, also the opponents lists, muawije and imp.
(and i don´t weaken them! 1000 points with 2 rams and 2 necromowers..)

For your education Aldrien, accountant-players are the ones that massge the numbers looking for the most effective expenditure of points in an army so it does maximum carnage for the points.  And they tend to have at least three backup lists that do almost/exactly the same amount of carnage for the points.

yes, it is catually very whilesome (?) to try to "implement" a concept. for exaple assaultmariens+dogs.
the same goes for basic efficiency or scenario-army

the other lists are just spinoffs from the concepts, a playing idle with army builder.
after some time you get a fealing for relative point costs and how much something seems worth

  There is nothing wrong with that style of play, if that is what makes ya happy.  It's possible to be fluffy while doing so too... but difficult with most armies.

gaming with AB, less so with UWZ. but the very well thought out lists are sometimes tried and normally i have a good standing against such as the cheasy imp army abough -> theory works ok

Remember man... it's not always about the numbers- its about having fun despite how efficient/effective the list is.  I managed to get that through CKGeist's skull...

yea, but you missing out the other part! playing with army builder, and then seeing it unfold in reality.
that is fun, because you thought about the units and there potential. can you unfold it??

if you just throw something together it´s the live-with-the-recources game. also funny, but just one side of the coin.

cu´s

p.s.

For your education Aldrien

i never tried it, but i think a phrase like that would be considered arrogant and somewhat high-nosed in germany! -> we also have some no goes and are not totally in-insultible 
-> note: i did not know (but guessed) the phrase, and totally not insulted or something.

[Archer]

if you just throw something together it´s the live-with-the-recources game. also funny, but just one side of the coin.

  Very true...  but I  find that to be a test of general-ship.  At least for me...

For your education Aldrien

i never tried it, but i think a phrase like that would be considered arrogant and somewhat high-nosed in germany! -> we also have some no goes and are not totally in-insultible 
-> note: i did not know (but guessed) the phrase, and totally not insulted or something.

  good- you took it as intended and not as an insult.   Not meant to be a high-handed comment or insulting, merely a relaying of info.

[masherking]

My 2 cents when comes to para-deploy itself.
I love it and echo what dave says about

Stalkers (dark legion)  have saved me more then once thanks to para-deploy. Hell I watch them scatter into cover (behide a wall, prone) only to stand up next turn guns blazing.
Nothing beats the ablitiy to get behind enemy lines and their fortification cause chaos and eating up your enemies backup units, while you main force comes knocking on their door killing their fort line units