Author Topic: Para Deploy and" your turn"  (Read 18092 times)

Offline PhillySniper

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Para Deploy and" your turn"
« on: October 10, 2005, 05:16:37 AM »
I have a question for everyone concerning paradeploy.

During game play, in a basic industrial kill everyone battle, I came across this situation.
My opponent had decided to use a bulk of his force on paradeploy units. I built a rather conventional force. Because of this I had 4 more squads to activate than he did< not including his paras>.
Now heres my question. What constitutes the end of your turn? My opinion on this is if you pass  twice during a round that is the end of your turn.  Paradeply SA states that you can deploy anytime during "your" turn. If I activate two or more times without action by my opponent, my feeling is he shouldnt be allowed to bring his paras into play on that turn as he no longer has a turn. My opponents waited until I had finished moving all my squads< when he won init and all things being equal I would have moved last, thus ending the round> to bring his paras into play. That to me didnt seem to be a legal tactic. I looked for an answer in the book and couldnt find one.


Thanks for any input.

Philly
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Offline Topkick

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2005, 05:31:21 AM »
I remember this came up on the old forums but the answer escapes me at the moment. I'm thinking that it was they choose to deploy on their activation until all your forces are deployed and the turn ends - but I could be wrong. I've played it both ways
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 05:44:28 AM by Topkick »
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2005, 10:28:06 AM »
Bryon if you go last and activate your last unit the turn has come to an end . Your opponent will have to wait till the next turn to activate.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2005, 11:57:07 AM »
Bryon if you go last and activate your last unit the turn has come to an end . Your opponent will have to wait till the next turn to activate.


I understand that part. The part im having trouble with is when he has done his three onboard activations. I still have 4 more onboard activations to go. My opponent says Im done when I still have three activatins to go. He doesnt do anything after the first or second activation then after the 3rd states Im gonna use my paras. My prob with that is that by passing he effectively ended his turn. I cant pass and say Im not gonna use this squad and then when I see something to my liking say ok Im gonna use them now. IMO if a player has paras and are going to use them in a turn, he should have to use them before passing on multiple activations. And if he passes he definately shouldnt be able to deploy them after I have moved all of my squads.

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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2005, 04:32:33 PM »
Bryon during a turn you and your opponent activating 1 unit at a time. It is legal for your opponent to bring in 1 squad of para. after your 3rd activtion but not all his units, since activation 4 is your last he has to wait till the next turn. At which time he can bring in 1 unit per activation just as if the game was being played without any para-deploy troops.
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2005, 03:48:36 PM »
I think that is what Bryon is saying, Phil.  I believe a good example of Bryon's discussion is as follows:

  • Bryon wins intiative and choose to active his Militia
  • Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his Chasseurs
  • Bryon activates his Vulkans
  • Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his People's Volunteers
  • Bryon activates his Dragoons
  • Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers (his last unit left to activate)
  • Bryon activates his Pauldron Hussars
  • Bryon activates Max Steiner
  • Bryon activates his Jungle Kommandos (his last unit to activate), ending the turn.


It is at this point where the discussion is being made.  Bryon thinks that Jeff should NOT be allowed to bring in his para-deploers at this point, and must wait until next turn when he has activations - thus, ending the turn.  Bryon feels that he should not lose his activation advantage to the para-deployers, as he would not have lost it had Jeff not had para-deployers.

There are those out there that play it where you may bring your para-deployers in anytime after your opponent has completed activating one his/her units, even it their opponent had three or more activations more than they did, as follows:

  • Bryon wins intiative and choose to active his Militia
  • Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his Chasseurs
  • Bryon activates his Vulkans
  • Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers and actives his People's Volunteers
  • Bryon activates his Dragoons
  • Jeff decides to NOT bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers (his last unit left to activate)
  • Bryon activates his Pauldron Hussars
  • Bryon activates Max Steiner
  • Bryon activates his Jungle Kommandos (his last unit to activate)
  • Jeff NOW decides to bring in his Para Deploying Shock Troopers (his last unit left to activate) gaining a huge advantage by dropping in on Bryon's rear quarters.  He obliterates half squad with no chance of return fire.

End of turn.

Correct me if I am wrong, Bryon.


My thoughts are that para-deploy already has severe limitations:
  • Cannot ever land directly on center of target - will always deviate.
  • Landing takes an AC, landing more than 2" from the center of the DZ takes another action, and failing LD means you fall prone, taking yet another AC to go MP or stand.
  • Almost never lands where you want it to land.
  • Take a friggin' miracle to get off a relatively small number of shots.

However, I am not blind to the advantages.  I feel that para-deploy works well when, like anything else, it is used properly.

I am on the fence, here.  I lean more towards the "anytime after your opponent has completed activating a unit" deployment. I believe that there is merit to both sides (deploy anytime it would normally be your turn to do so vs. deploy as long as it is legal to do so without "passing" on an activation.

Need a ruling.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 06:28:17 PM by dmcgee1 »
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2005, 05:08:56 PM »
...not to mention that they are expensive and can longer use their SA once on the ground.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

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Offline UrbanShocker

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2005, 07:34:14 PM »
As someone who plays Capital quite often and uses airborne troopers fairly often, I have seen the good the bad of para deploy.  After using these quite a bit, I have come to appreciate the advantage of being able to drop my airborne troopers in after my opponent have moved their forces for the turn.  It's a key part of my strategy and also a key part of the use of Para deploying troops, is when to drop them.  As Dave pointed that in when you are doing your troop a lot can go wrong.  So my view and with my experience I'm some one that goes for being able to drop your forces anytime during your turn.  Including after the opponent has moved

Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2005, 08:10:38 PM »
As someone who plays Capital quite often and uses airborne troopers fairly often, I have seen the good the bad of para deploy.  After using these quite a bit, I have come to appreciate the advantage of being able to drop my airborne troopers in after my opponent have moved their forces for the turn.  It's a key part of my strategy and also a key part of the use of Para deploying troops, is when to drop them.  As Dave pointed that in when you are doing your troop a lot can go wrong.  So my view and with my experience I'm some one that goes for being able to drop your forces anytime during your turn.  Including after the opponent has moved

That actually is the basis of my question for this thread. WHAT IS A TURN? Is it your turn as long as you have units available to be activated? My main question is about passing.  I can understand if you want to wait one activtation to deploy your paras, but if you wait more than one activation, that makes it an unfair tactic. Now grant it, the chance of it happening often where a player has more than 2 activations more than an opponent is rare, but the situation can occur and Id just like a clarification.
Thanks
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Offline Enker

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 11:22:04 PM »
I can't give you the answer Philly but I would like to see that you can field the Paras even if you were skipped in the turn and had activated your last normal sqaud.
Why? Because Paras were mostly a waste of points in our games. I don't know if we have the wrong tactics or if our battlefield has to much obstacels they can land on, but they get always messed up. If you can land them as the last unit in a turn the chance to survive would be greater, you just have to win the next initiative.
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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2005, 12:19:01 AM »
Ask JungleHunter and Shidoshi357 about my Paradeploying tactics.  There is only one way to get your points from Paradeploy models and it certainly ain't holding them for the perfect moment.

Catch me in person some time and I'll tell ya the difference between what winners and  losers hold.


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Offline Dragon62

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2005, 07:19:59 AM »
Bryon a turn is based on the number of units you have. If you have 5 unit and I have 7 unit your turn is 5 activation and mine is 7 activations. When using para-deploy troops the rules state you may deploy anytime during your turn not a game turn. So once your opponent has reached his last activation phase he would have to wait till the next turn to para-deploy. he does not gain extra activation phases because you have more units then him.
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Offline PhillySniper

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2005, 07:38:03 AM »
Bryon a turn is based on the number of units you have. If you have 5 unit and I have 7 unit your turn is 5 activation and mine is 7 activations. When using para-deploy troops the rules state you may deploy anytime during your turn not a game turn. So once your opponent has reached his last activation phase he would have to wait till the next turn to para-deploy. he does not gain extra activation phases because you have more units then him.

Ok so if you have 4 activations plus your paras, you would be allowed to deploy anytime after  my activations 4, 5 and 6 but not after 7? Is my understanding correct? So as long as you have a unit to activate it is still your turn? Doesnt that take away my initiative advantage and my activation advantage?
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Offline dmcgee1

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2005, 04:41:00 PM »
Initiative is not the issue, though activations are.  Having initiative means you get to decides who activates first.  Having an Activation advantage means you get to out-activate the enemy towards the end of the turn, as you possess more units than the enemy.

That said, I am less on the fence than I was before.

Phil is saying that the turn ends when the last unit has been activated, and there are no units left to activate.  However, he is, also, saying that if you have not activated your paradeploy units by the time he has activated his last unit, then you have forfeited your right to do so for that turn.  It is here - sorry, Phil, that I am going to shoot his argument down, as well as yours, Bryon.  :)

Bryon, reverse the situation.

By some miracle, I have more units than my enemy, and one of them happens to be para-deploy.  I lose the initiative for the turn.  Here is how it would look:

  • Activation One
    • Enemy activates
    • I activate
  • Activation Two
    • Enemy activates
    • I activate
  • Activation Three
    • Enemy activates
    • I activate
  • Activation Four
    • Enemy is out of units and cannot activate
    • I activate
  • Activation Four
    • Enemy is out of units and cannot activate
    • I activate my paradeploy units (enemy has passed twice)

    I can choose, now, to land my para deploy units.  Yes, I know that the difference here is that
I[/i] have not passed.  I realize that this is one of the sticking points of the discussion, however, I offer it to show that if one side can hold them to the last, then the other side should be allowed.  Therefore, the definition of the end of the turn should be when all units that are able to activate have done so.

By Phil's definition, my turn would have been over before I could bring in my Para Deployers.

That said, Para Deployment is, by definition, a Special Ability.  As such, it is not, necessarily, subject to the "normal" rules.  It is, now, even more apparent to me that the Para Deploying Unit should be allowed to be activated any time during the player's turn.

Remember, this is a very expensive, one-time use Special Ability.

Further, I think that this discussion has reached a point that it needs official ruling.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 04:44:17 PM by dmcgee1 »
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

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Re: Para Deploy and" your turn"
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2005, 06:26:06 AM »
Hmm I do not believe the basic question has been understood.

If you 'pass' (even with some unactivated para-troopers) is 'your turn' over?