How to win against this Mishima force? Please help.

[Enker]

Hi @ all,

I need some help how to play against Mishima. We have played an Attacker / Defender Scenario.
Mishima had 1000 Pts to defend and the attackers (Capitol and Bauhaus) had each 750 Pts.
The distance to the objektive to take was about 48'' and on the last 20'' there was only rare cover for the attacker.
The attacker had 12 rounds to clear the building out of all Mishimas.
We (the attacker) had realy no chance to win. We didn't manage it to get to the building.
The firepower of Mishma was to great to let us come forward.
Here's a short overwiev of the forces:

Capitol:
Airborne Ranger
Freedom Brigs
Sunset Strikers
Rangers
Great Grey

Bauhaus:
Vulkans
Jägers
Mounted Hussars
and two Grunt Squads, don't remember exactly.

Mishima:
4x Faceless
4x Nagano Shadowwalker
2x Battlewalkers
Ameratsu
Hachiman

Our tactic was to rush forward with the Mounted and Sunsets under fireprotection from the Infiltrators and Paras in front of them.
Latter on the Grunt Troops and Vulkans came for firepower. Ok, we had bad luck, but that cannot be the only reason for this desaster.
What can you do agains 8 Snipers and 4 Battlewalkers? How can you beet this firepower?
And if this wasn't enough, Amerastu healed the wounded and fallen Snipers. It was very hard to shot her down, because
she always had cover and a meatshield. The Faceless were only meatshield, but they did their task well.
Ok, first question. Is this scenario to difficult for the attacker? Should he get twice the points of the defender?
Second question. This Mishma force seems unfair to me. How else can put 8 Snipers and 4 mounted HMG into a 1000 Pts force
and heal his fallen models? For defence this force seems to me even better as a Vulcan / Victor Bauhaus force.
Please help us how to win against this Mishima force. He always playes this configuration.
@Bagomba: Yes we have lost. Be happy, but revenge is sweet.

[PFC joe]

Ask Shidoshi357.  He fields that force all the time and I beat it soundly just as often.  The real trick to beating it is getting inside the range of the Archer rifles.

   With Capitol take Rangers and Infiltrate to Short/Medium range with Manstalkers.  Take at least two squads of Rangers with as may Snipers as you can fit in there.  Tac sense onto the walkers, they go down easy enough under a squad of fire and have the Snipers use their SA to start pickin on Snipers.  Lose the Strikers, the Airborne rangers and the Freedom Brigadeers.  Get LI and Dogs and get them up their to support ASAP.  Toss in an Infantry Colonel and a Maria del Tores for intiative.  Leave the Grey in the back and spend every single action at 3+ shooting into Long Range.

"Haus, Tac sense Ameratsu wit your grunt squads and dig them into the farthest firing lane you can get.  The Vulkans need to get cover and never move again.  Use the Capitol front ranks as a meat shield and charge those Mounties up there.  Get them into CC with the Walkers ASAP.


The trick is to Kill one sniper of each squad and start forcing Panic checks.  It gets worse for each wound they take after that, even if healed they're still Paniced.  Ameratsu can try to rally them, but that's less actions she can spend for healing.


-PFC joe

[Enker]

Hmm, ok there are some things, that could work, but:
What do you do, if the Mishima only wait behind the building walls for your attack?
How would you dig them out? For this there were the Sunsets with their two flamers.
Because of that I think this scenario ist unfair for the attacker. He needs more points.
When you can leave the Sunsets two Squad Rangers could work, or maybe two Squads of
Wailing Banshees, they have better Armor and are fast at the front.
The Airborne were useless, I learned that. It is to difficult to land them properly on our field.
To get closer to the Snipers was the problem. There was this 20'' killing zone we couln't pass
and the distance to the Snipers was over 24''.
You talk so easily about taking down a battlewalker. Maybe with luck you can do this with a squad, but it is very hard
and then your Squad is wiped out after that, by the three remaining battlewalkers and the snipers.
And I forgot, what if the Mishima Battlewalker use the "vehicle pop out and hide" tactic?
Yes I missed my Colonel, but I had no points left for him.
But thanks for the advices. Maybe I try to field a second Great Grey and this time pass some saves.

[Sylvas]

Is that Mishima force even legal?...

It looks like it has only 1 grunt squad (Faceless)...4 Elite squads (Nagano Shadowwalkers)...a support unit (walker)...and 2 individuals...

but against that force, I'd put some Purple Sharks in there for some speed and some flank attacks to draw some fire

a mortar might help as well...

B

[Topkick]

I would check into some Banshees - rapid movement and they have a flamer option available. The Strikers are a bit expensive for just the flamers. I'd also para-deploy the Airborne, if you keep them in the force, to set up a second front and thus divide his fire. Also use snipers to take out the individual and some GL troops. Grenades are devastating inside buildings. Other options include infiltrators - both Capitol and Bauhaus have some good ones. Whether you use infiltrators or paratroops using a squad to divide his fire while your main force advances is a good tactic. If he ignores your secondary force they can assault the building - if he doesn't then it lessens the firepower directed against the main force.

[PhillySniper]

The first thing I notice about scenario is that there is 20" of open space. No wonder you get chewed up! It takes you 2 1/3 turns just to get close to the building< assuming you dont do anything other than move.>  Thats a ton of open space. I played a similar scenario where there was 10", it was hard but a lot easier than 20" with very little cover.

Now as to how to beat the scenario as is.
IMO with Bauhaus you need to start with a Dragoon squad with 2 snipers with 1 action to aim +3 to RC which is now 14 and tac sense you get a total of 4 shots with a dam 14 weapon with a plus for LR and ER. And if he slips and leaves his Indivs where you can see them, use all three actions to take the shot at a RC of at least 14

A jaeger squad with a HMG and a Kapt <for init and fire power> Infiltrate close, win init and open fire. Keep them on the opposite side fromy our force so you can force him to divide his fire

A squad of 5 Ducal militia with ablative armor and laser sites- fast movers with a great AR. If you can get close to the faceless engage in CC. Theyll blow up even if you lose the CC and do damage around them

Max Steiner- Just because he Rocks and inside MR has a high ROF

A strike skimmer with a Kommano support attached< his ambush SA will some in handy when the defender tries to  do the richard dance>

As for Capitol <Ive never played with them thos against them>

Id bring speed to get there and harrass them

A 5unit K-9 squad
A 6 man light infantry squad
A 5 man banshee squad w/ Kaptain
A 5 man ranger squad with grenades
A great grey
Maria Del Torres

Lots of fire power and movement between the two. Harrass and throw lots of lead.

Just my two cents on the topic.


Philly

[Dragon62]

The first problem i see is that you did not use the proper number of points for the attackers. In the attacker/defender scenario pts= 750 defender/1400 attacker. you should have had alease 2000 points total for the attackers. The scenario also allows you to attack from any or all table edges with the defender in the center. I would have had the vulkans and the great gray target the walkers and targeted the faceless first with all available rifles then rushed in for the clean up.

[PFC joe]

The first problem i see is that you did not use the proper number of points for the attackers. In the attacker/defender scenario pts= 750 defender/1400 attacker. you should have had alease 2000 points total for the attackers. The scenario also allows you to attack from any or all table edges with the defender in the center. I would have had the vulkans and the great gray target the walkers and targeted the faceless first with all available rifles then rushed in for the clean up.

sounds good, but ignore the faceless.  Target the Snipers and the Individuals first.

-PFC jeo

[Bagomba]

ok i was the mishima player enker had played against...

here is my force
4 Squads of Faceless ( each 4 )
4 Squads Nagano Shadow Walkers ( each 2 )
2 Squads Ronin Battlewaker ( each 2 )
1 Hachiman Masadoka
2 Demon Hunter
1 Ameratsu

all 1000 points ( and i think legal )

but in defense this force is unbeatable... the attacker had to pass over 30 inch before they get to their goal... I have per turn 16 Shots with a damage of 14 and a average hit score of 13 ( all aimed yet ) i think there tatic was good... first draw fire with infiltrate and parachutes squads to get enough time for the rest of the force to get close enough... but the sniper and the battlewalker don´t need much time to get though them... ( airbrone rangers with parachute and rangers and jaegers with infiltrate ) middle of second turn the were eleminated... and then the rest was easy... they can´t get all cover and with so much snipers you always get a hit ( but there was a lot of cover, sometimes i MUST spend wait actions because i can´t shoot someone.... but when do a wrong step forward then the snipers do the rest... and the most deadly in this scenario was the last 12 inch with not much cover.... somebody in my force ( after the third turn ) had always a wait action to kill somone.... DEVASTATING for the enemy... ok the luck was my partner ( 3 times a 1 in a row ) but i think this scenario wasn´t to win for the attacker.... let me know if i´m wrong...  and keep watching for japanese style

[Bagomba]

and what i forgot... let the faceless run in front so that they had to shot them first ( Cannon Fodder ) then the enemy must roll 2 times ( first tatical sense if available and then the shot ) and after all you get an armor roll ( and luck was my brother )

[Topkick]

There is no such thing as an unbeatable force but there are unwinnable scenarios and this one definitely seems to favor the defender .

One thing I notice is that at 1000 point defender vs 1500 point attacker the points are a bit unbalanced. I think the book has a cost for trenches that should be used in this scenario. Those point costs need to be applied to the defensive position. I think you'll find that it will total more than 500 points. If it does then the scenario is unbalanced.

Second to force troops to rush across 20" of open ground against dug in defenders is just wrong. If they do nothing but advance, that is more than two full turns the attacker is exposed to the fire of the defenders w/o benefit of any cover. That means that the defender will have 2 turns with 96 fire actions each (32 figs with at least 3 actions per figure) or 192 actions to shoot. With those numbers no one could fail to decimate the attacker regardless of how poor the RC stat is for their troops.

I suggest re-evaluating the scenario and repointing the forces based on the points assigned to the hard cover. I would also cut the open ground to 8" max per side.

As for the tactics needed I stand by my earlier recommendations. You need to assault from multiple directions to spread his fire and the Banshees with a 5" move would help. One thing I didn't mention was to add smoke capability if you can get it.

[PFC joe]

I've won against this exact army in a straight up 1000 vs 1000 point fight and similar in objective matches.   It's not easy, you just have to put good infiltrators (not paradeployer except for maybe paradeploying Template tossers) up front and book the back ranks forward.  I had to cross fairly open terrain to do it.  I'm an extremely Lucky bastard when it comes to dice rolls, but regardless, you just have to manuever quickly and get into position and force those Panic checks.


My Algeroth force that went up against this one beat it soundly.  You can't fight paradeploying zombies coupled with Tekrons and Behemoths in your own deployment zone and expect to do well.

-PFC joe

[PhillySniper]

and what i forgot... let the faceless run in front so that they had to shot them first ( Cannon Fodder ) then the enemy must roll 2 times ( first tatical sense if available and then the shot ) and after all you get an armor roll ( and luck was my brother )

Question. Was he rolling for panic wih the faceless? If not that makes a difference. Remember when faceless panic they explode!!! Not a great idea for a meat shield.

[LAWwaldo]

  I think one way to beat such a sniper force is to make him spend those actions on trying to pick out individuals in your squads.  In that sense he wastes actions which translates into less of your guys dying.  Yes, you may lose that Rocket launcher with AP shells or those grenade launches (because even if you miss you still may make him have to roll all those armor saves, which even if it ends up being dmg 1 is still dangerous) however its cheaper to lose a specialist than 3 soldiers.  What may even prove more usefull would be some Orcas with a RL specialist with AP shells.  Just sit and shoot with the AP's (effective 13 RC when not moving) and he'll be forced to try and take out the specialist, who will survive even more shots than the normal specialist.  Even better would be to try and manouver so that only a unit of snipers at a time could see him, so that would be less shots comming his way.  Yes, he may have a meat shield, but if you position your guys in a way to knock out the models and then make it so that the only person that the RL can see is the snipers (such as position the other two orcas in front of him so that he can only see forward through the 1" gap) then you elimate that problem (and that Orcas in general are great at mowing down infantry)

[Enker]

and what i forgot... let the faceless run in front so that they had to shot them first ( Cannon Fodder ) then the enemy must roll 2 times ( first tatical sense if available and then the shot ) and after all you get an armor roll ( and luck was my brother )

Question. Was he rolling for panic wih the faceless? If not that makes a difference. Remember when faceless panic they explode!!! Not a great idea for a meat shield.

Äh, no. Bagomba you didn't told that. This would have made a difference, but not much enough to win the game.
And I agree with the oppinion, that 1500 Pts are not enough for the attacker.
But the Mishima Force is a very hard one. It is not unbeatable, but very hard to wipe out in a defender scenario.
It is superior to many other coorparation forces and you need much luck.