Author Topic: State of the Nation  (Read 19937 times)

Offline Veez

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State of the Nation
« on: February 26, 2007, 05:56:02 AM »
It's been roughly a year (give or take) since Paradox pulled the rug out from under us (thanks guys-how's that movie coming along?).

I'm not going to make bitter comments at how much money they could have been making through EE compared to what Fantasy Forge has been raking in with their (cough-unreleased-cough) Mutant Chronicles collectable figure game.

I am not here to go over painful territory or hurt anyone's feelings (except a mild sting to the aforementioned corporation that starts with the letter P).

I would like to examine where we are and where we are going.

Achievements:

1.  Figures
We have sucked the world dry of existing Warzone figures.  Yeah there are still sources out there but they are drying up quickly.   Prince August remains our best hope, assuming we can produce enough business through them to convince them to produce for us.  I am optimistic, but not holding my breath, either.  Cyclopes Forge has also produced some suspiciously familiar figures and if we in the States can get past the insane S&H costs or get a local distributer we will be looking well.  The only thing that could make us purr would be for the greens that never saw the light of day to get produced but we can always hope.
We have identified proxies and scour EBAY almost daily but soon may have to resort to piracy to produce "legitimate figures".  I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing so long as laws are not broken.  I label this as an accomplishment because I think it proves that Warzone has life and a financial interest if only to a niche market.  It has also made us tighter as a group as we trade amongst our selves.  I have yet to see a negative post in the Good Traders section (of course maybe that's why it is the Good Traders section) and only know of one case of someone hedging.  Overall though, people have been extremely generous with one another.

2. Conventions
We have gone independant and shed the chains of organized conventions (although there is still participation in some of the more open-minded conventions) and started producing our own events.  I think this is a remarkable feat considereing.  I especially salute the efforts of Topkick, Archer, and the whole Maplewood gang for keeping that torch burning in the continental United States.  Europe is freaking out of control with Warzone/Chronopia goodness and I don't even know where to start with those guys.  I know I have left someone out in this so my apologies if I have.

3.  Unit of Command
The board has done an excellent job with the Warzone FAQ team.  The dozens of small issues the plague any first printing/new ruleset are being addressed and smoothed out.  Keep up the good work. 

Challanges:

1.  Figures
See above.

2.  Factions
There is a small sense of us vs. them between this board and some of the European crowd.  Also, some people have split off and started using their own rules to overcome percieved shortcomings.  Some would argue this is the beginning of the end.  Others would point to its inevitability.   The question is at what point does it stop becoming Warzone?  I would argue that second edition was so far off the map from the original fluff that it was close.

3.  Spam 
Good heavens will it ever end?  I'm not pointing fingers at anyone other than the spammers on this one.

4.  Forward progress
Where are we now, but more importantly where are we going?  Coki has pushed forward with a team for Curelian Mists.  Chronopia is limited by its lack of a points rubric.  There have been long talks about the legitimacy of producing or copying the Warzone rubric so I won't rehash that debate but I feel there are some shortcomings in the games that should be addressed.  I would like to see an indie mag produced by the board pushing foward new ideas, units, and scenarios if only as house rules.  There is plenty of Chornopia and Warzone out there before we go stagnant, but it will happen.  I know this leaves up open to dissent and disagreement, but it is worthy of thought.

Lamentation
I admint now that I am far more into Warzone than when it was fully armed an operational.  I wonder some times if I would have been more active then (read deeper into the rules, funneled my money towards it rather than some game that will only change everything you bought in a year anyway) it would have made a difference.  Unlikely but it falls in that "which drop of water causes the damn to break" category.


In summary, it's been a year but we are still here.   I would like where all of you think we should be headed.
VeezCon products:  Not as good as if they had been actually produced by a real figure company, but better than using your shoe to proxy with...sort of!

Offline Archer

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2007, 08:37:27 AM »

Achievements:

1.  Figures
We have sucked the world dry of existing Warzone figures.  Yeah there are still sources out there but they are drying up quickly.   Prince August remains our best hope, assuming we can produce enough business through them to convince them to produce for us.  I am optimistic, but not holding my breath, either.  Cyclopes Forge has also produced some suspiciously familiar figures and if we in the States can get past the insane S&H costs or get a local distributer we will be looking well.  The only thing that could make us purr would be for the greens that never saw the light of day to get produced but we can always hope.
We have identified proxies and scour EBAY almost daily but soon may have to resort to piracy to produce "legitimate figures".  I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing so long as laws are not broken.  I label this as an accomplishment because I think it proves that Warzone has life and a financial interest if only to a niche market.  It has also made us tighter as a group as we trade amongst our selves.  I have yet to see a negative post in the Good Traders section (of course maybe that's why it is the Good Traders section) and only know of one case of someone hedging.  Overall though, people have been extremely generous with one another.

  Indeed.  Maplewood still has a healthy amount of product in the back room and Gamers Realm enough to build small armies of two factions- and maybe fillout other forces.  I should have a list soon.

  I also say we encourage a certain individuals efforts with resin...  I know I'd like some more Chassuers... *hint*


2. Conventions
We have gone independant and shed the chains of organized conventions (although there is still participation in some of the more open-minded conventions) and started producing our own events.  I think this is a remarkable feat considereing.  I especially salute the efforts of Topkick, Archer, and the whole Maplewood gang for keeping that torch burning in the continental United States.  Europe is freaking out of control with Warzone/Chronopia goodness and I don't even know where to start with those guys.  I know I have left someone out in this so my apologies if I have.

Indeed....  if there is enough support among the community as a whole, I will look into a hotel conference room or small ballroom for a day of gaming with a small fee... but there has to be a solid interest.  At least fifteen to twenty players or this gets expensive for ol'Archer as I will have to cover shortfall.   Possibly looking at a may time frame.  If I do this, I might have to let the GW crowd in with some of the odd-ball games (Necromunda and BFG)

  (jesus christ... and I swore I would never run/work a convention again)

2.  Factions
There is a small sense of us vs. them between this board and some of the European crowd.  Also, some people have split off and started using their own rules to overcome percieved shortcomings.  Some would argue this is the beginning of the end.  Others would point to its inevitability.   The question is at what point does it stop becoming Warzone?  I would argue that second edition was so far off the map from the original fluff that it was close.

  I would say as long as people are happy and know the core game for international meet-ups, does it matter?  As it is, I have scratch lists for Imperial Guard, Marines and Battle-sisters.  I am working on Orks, Tau and Eldar here'n'there...

4.  Forward progress
Where are we now, but more importantly where are we going?  Coki has pushed forward with a team for Curelian Mists.  Chronopia is limited by its lack of a points rubric.  There have been long talks about the legitimacy of producing or copying the Warzone rubric so I won't rehash that debate but I feel there are some shortcomings in the games that should be addressed.  I would like to see an indie mag produced by the board pushing foward new ideas, units, and scenarios if only as house rules.  There is plenty of Chornopia and Warzone out there before we go stagnant, but it will happen.  I know this leaves up open to dissent and disagreement, but it is worthy of thought.

  We will manage, as we have so far... who knows?  Thom *might* find a way to get the rules released again in some form.  Could not hurt to hope though I am not pinning everything on it. 

  If nothing else, we can come to agreements on expansions to the armies (with lots of playtest!!) and post them here or on a fan-driven site with links to the forums here.  I am certain we can, collectively, do a good job at keeping things alive.
John "Archer" Tinney

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Offline masherking

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2007, 10:22:23 AM »
Indeed....  if there is enough support among the community as a whole, I will look into a hotel conference room or small ballroom for a day of gaming with a small fee... but there has to be a solid interest.  At least fifteen to twenty players or this gets expensive for ol'Archer as I will have to cover shortfall.   Possibly looking at a may time frame.  If I do this, I might have to let the GW crowd in with some of the odd-ball games (Necromunda and BFG)
         -archer


One day con's are the best .
I still remember the one at the rescue squad from years ago as being pretty kool.
            
     
 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 10:28:40 AM by masherking »
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Offline Archer

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2007, 10:51:05 AM »

One day con's are the best .
I still remember the one at the rescue squad from years ago as being pretty kool.

  It was a firehouse... but thanks dude.  They were pretty fun/easy to run.

  I'll stop in the local places up this way sometime in the next few weeks and get an idea of how much money it is going to cost for a day.  Once I know, I'll break it down to a per-person cost based on twenty people (there is about that many in the tri-state area that play) and we will go from there.

sound fair?
John "Archer" Tinney

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Offline Gubs

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2007, 03:09:09 PM »
1.  Piracy is illegal.  Period.  You can't reproduce something without the right to do that.
2.  I actually view this as a negative as it means less public interaction with the gaming community and a more insulated and isolated group of core gamers.

Offline dmcgee1

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2007, 04:18:35 PM »
Corny as it sounds, I'm with Gubs on this one.  That said, I am not above going about change and improvement by proper means.
If sing, sang, and sung, sink, sank, and sunk, and drink, drank, and drunk, how is it that it isn't bring, brang, and brung, think, thank and thunk, and ding, dang, and dung?

Don't even get me started about bad, badder and baddest.  Run, ran AND run...again?  C'mon!

Offline wmeredith

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2007, 04:52:34 PM »
Hello.

I will play with the actual mini's for warzone and chronopia when and where I can. In the event I can't buy/trade for them, well I will proxy them. I am already in the process of finding proxies for the majority of my sons of cronos and will proxy what I can't find elsewhere. If we play it the game lives the mini's are nice but secondary.

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Wise men say absolute power corrupts absolutely I am not a wise man.

Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2007, 01:54:38 AM »
well, to get the feeling you just need the warzone minis... (imho)

good proxies integrated are fine, but I like it when the both sides have the "same" style.

made a demo game with 40k figs and somehow it was odd.


-> other maufactuers figs are better then nothing, but I go to any lengh to play with warzone sculpts and not some other armies
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Offline Gubs

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2007, 02:20:54 PM »
A lot of the VOID line  should work well.  I get the feeling that a lot of their initial releases were pre-existing Warzone greens that hadn't quite made it into production yet.

Failing that, anything from Kev White should work.

Offline masherking

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2007, 02:22:50 PM »
A lot of the VOID line  should work well.  I get the feeling that a lot of their initial releases were pre-existing Warzone greens that hadn't quite made it into production yet.

Failing that, anything from Kev White should work.

I've heard this to be very true
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Offline joshuaslater

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2007, 07:29:12 AM »
Wholesale piracy of the IP's is illegal, but there's nothing stopping Cyclopes forge from putting out suitable proxies for those of us still playing.  Or any other manufacturer out there either.

If Reaper could make an entire business out of altering the D&D milieu in metal and renaming it, why can't someone do the same for Chrono and Warzone, at least as far as the rules set goes? 

What people have to remember is that these games we enjoy are more than the sum of great fluff and great rules.  The minis are still cool after all these years that we put them on the table, despite so many other newer, sexier sculpts coming down the road today. 

And so we wait.

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Offline Topkick

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2007, 08:07:46 AM »
It's been roughly a year (give or take) since Paradox pulled the rug out from under us (thanks guys-how's that movie coming along?).

I'm not going to make bitter comments at how much money they could have been making through EE compared to what Fantasy Forge has been raking in with their (cough-unreleased-cough) Mutant Chronicles collectable figure game.

I am not here to go over painful territory or hurt anyone's feelings (except a mild sting to the aforementioned corporation that starts with the letter P).

I think the fact that we are still here and spending money on this game proves that EE was on the right track. Paradox lost a lot of money based on the what we have spent as a group in the last year, not to mention the money they would have made on the new books and releases that could have come out in the past year.

I would like to examine where we are and where we are going.

Achievements:

1.  Figures
We have sucked the world dry of existing Warzone figures.  Yeah there are still sources out there but they are drying up quickly.   Prince August remains our best hope, assuming we can produce enough business through them to convince them to produce for us.  I am optimistic, but not holding my breath, either.  Cyclopes Forge has also produced some suspiciously familiar figures and if we in the States can get past the insane S&H costs or get a local distributer we will be looking well.  The only thing that could make us purr would be for the greens that never saw the light of day to get produced but we can always hope.
We have identified proxies and scour EBAY almost daily but soon may have to resort to piracy to produce "legitimate figures".  I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing so long as laws are not broken.  I label this as an accomplishment because I think it proves that Warzone has life and a financial interest if only to a niche market.  It has also made us tighter as a group as we trade amongst our selves.  I have yet to see a negative post in the Good Traders section (of course maybe that's why it is the Good Traders section) and only know of one case of someone hedging.  Overall though, people have been extremely generous with one another.

Not quite dry but the sources are drying up. I don't know of anyone hedging and agree that we have the best group of traders on the net.

2. Conventions
We have gone independant and shed the chains of organized conventions (although there is still participation in some of the more open-minded conventions) and started producing our own events.  I think this is a remarkable feat considereing.  I especially salute the efforts of Topkick, Archer, and the whole Maplewood gang for keeping that torch burning in the continental United States.  Europe is freaking out of control with Warzone/Chronopia goodness and I don't even know where to start with those guys.  I know I have left someone out in this so my apologies if I have.

Thank you for the kind words but the work in the Midwest has been a group effort. Southpaw, Coldthunder, Stalker, The One King and Sylvas all deserve kudos. Stop by at Origins and say hi and let them and me know what we can do to make Origins better next year.

I also think that the Jersey Boys and the Philly Crew have the right idea. We need to continue identifying pockets of interest and coordinate regional cons to keep it going and expand our base. To that end I am going to talk to Dog of War and the 4 Staters to see if we can identify a venue that is acceptable to them and the Boys from Southern Illinois. If we can find one then maybe we can put together something

3.  Unit of Command
The board has done an excellent job with the Warzone FAQ team.  The dozens of small issues the plague any first printing/new ruleset are being addressed and smoothed out.  Keep up the good work. 

Agreed

Challanges:

1.  Figures
See above.

Most of the 28 mm figs will work. Besides the Urban Mammoth figs, Rezolution, GW, and severla others listed in the search links will work. Cyclops is making excellent proxies and I think that if we let the smaller independent sculptors know they might submit works to Cyclops or other manufacturers for limited production.

2.  Factions
There is a small sense of us vs. them between this board and some of the European crowd.  Also, some people have split off and started using their own rules to overcome percieved shortcomings.  Some would argue this is the beginning of the end.  Others would point to its inevitability.   The question is at what point does it stop becoming Warzone?  I would argue that second edition was so far off the map from the original fluff that it was close.

People have their own desires for the expansion of the game. Grumpel was going to put together something and the Poles have their own FAQ. In the end attempting to force everyone to one standard is what will fracture our community. I encourage that we accept all these cousins to the game and maintain a friendly exchange of ideas. I personally think that everything needed is in the Ultimate rulebook and units limited to one faction (ie the Vermin APC) that make sense for all factions can be created using the same stat line and point cost. Just rename it and find a suitable fig. Bottom line we all love the game so lets work together for the common good.

3.  Spam 
Good heavens will it ever end?  I'm not pointing fingers at anyone other than the spammers on this one.

We just need to keep working together to report them and hopefully they will get the message and go away.

4.  Forward progress
Where are we now, but more importantly where are we going?  Coki has pushed forward with a team for Curelian Mists.  Chronopia is limited by its lack of a points rubric.  There have been long talks about the legitimacy of producing or copying the Warzone rubric so I won't rehash that debate but I feel there are some shortcomings in the games that should be addressed.  I would like to see an indie mag produced by the board pushing foward new ideas, units, and scenarios if only as house rules.  There is plenty of Chornopia and Warzone out there before we go stagnant, but it will happen.  I know this leaves up open to dissent and disagreement, but it is worthy of thought.

The books or at least preproduction notes are out there. If Thom still retains the intellectual rights I for one would gladly pay him in advance for copies so that he could pay upfront for a print run. If they belong to Paradox then I think we need to make them aware that we are here and enter into negotiations to release the material. We have the rubric exposed but the ownership is in debate. We have Grumpels waiver in these forums. If we can get Thom's and/or Paradox's we are in business. I like the idea of an in house mag but wonder who has the time. Maybe if we find a current indie mag- or web- zine we could get some column space from them. My first thought is to talk to Mark Theurer. He was always kind to Warzone and Chronopia in the past. 

Lamentation
I admint now that I am far more into Warzone than when it was fully armed an operational.  I wonder some times if I would have been more active then (read deeper into the rules, funneled my money towards it rather than some game that will only change everything you bought in a year anyway) it would have made a difference.  Unlikely but it falls in that "which drop of water causes the damn to break" category.

I do not want to make anyone here feel bad but I have to relate this as it has a direct bearing on this topic. Thom once told me that he did not want to produce the Warzone SD figs (the Valpurgis and Brotherhood figs that were  replicas of his artwork that appeared in a thread). Everyone raved about them and swore they would buy a set. He sold one - to me. That hurt him more than any other event that happened in the troubles Excelsior experienced I think. He trusted us and we let him down. I have wondered in the past year if Thom spending so little time here has to do with the support for the games we show now but weren't showing when he needed us.

In summary, it's been a year but we are still here.   I would like where all of you think we should be headed.

I stand with the games and Thom. Until they become at odds with each other I will not pick one over the other. When/if that happens I will have to look into my soul and decide what I have to do to live with myself. As for our future we stand at a crossroads. If we turn our backs on each other and our common past (the game) we will perish like so many others who eventually gave up on an OOP game and moved on. I live for OOP games. Been playing Legions of Steel for ?? years and Warzone/Chronopia since they hit my FLGS. As to the specifics ideas for our future that should perhaps be a seperate thread and/or poll so we can jucdge what the group wants and go from there.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 08:25:19 AM by Topkick »
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2007, 08:36:45 AM »
Quote
I do not want to make anyone here feel bad but I have to relate this as it has a direct bearing on this topic. Thom once told me that he did not want to produce the Warzone SD figs (the Valpurgis and Brotherhood figs that were  replicas of his artwork that appeared in a thread). Everyone raved about them and swore they would buy a set. He sold one - to me. That hurt him more than any other event that happened in the troubles Excelsior experienced I think. He trusted us and we let him down. I have wondered in the past year if Thom spending so little time here has to do with the support for the games we show now but weren't showing when he needed us.

I also bought a set, and have wondered that exact same sentiment, myself..... :(

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Offline Topkick

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2007, 08:45:32 AM »
Quote
I do not want to make anyone here feel bad but I have to relate this as it has a direct bearing on this topic. Thom once told me that he did not want to produce the Warzone SD figs (the Valpurgis and Brotherhood figs that were  replicas of his artwork that appeared in a thread). Everyone raved about them and swore they would buy a set. He sold one - to me. That hurt him more than any other event that happened in the troubles Excelsior experienced I think. He trusted us and we let him down. I have wondered in the past year if Thom spending so little time here has to do with the support for the games we show now but weren't showing when he needed us.

I also bought a set, and have wondered that exact same sentiment, myself..... :(

SP

My apologies to you Southpaw and to anyone else who bought a set. I was told that only one set had been sold but that was a couple of years ago, before EE went under. Hopefully Thom sold enough to recover the cost at least.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 09:27:23 AM by Topkick »
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Offline Coil

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Re: State of the Nation
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2007, 05:29:55 AM »
I got one of each as well. So maybe Thom was exaggerating a bit but they probably didn't sell that well.