Author Topic: dream warriors and crystal knights  (Read 20797 times)

Offline troy-the-just

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dream warriors and crystal knights
« on: February 13, 2007, 12:58:00 PM »
ok, a question

dream warrior, halves the rc or cc of any unit attacking it, rounding up

crystal knight-  all enemy units wihtin 4" negative 2 to their cc and rc

ok, which comes first?  i have a nasty attacking my dream warrior with cc of 15

now,  thats 8, rounded up, minus 2 as he is wihtin 4" of my crystal knight for a cc of 6 0r

the nasty is 15- 2 for crystal knight, 13, divided by 2, 7 rounded up to hit my dream warrior

i can make arguments for both, if interested i will give them to you, of course 1/2 then subtracting 2 is more in favor of elves, taking 2 then dividing reduces the crystal knights effect to -1 not 2

thoughts

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2007, 01:34:55 PM »
As it stands, I can think of nothing in the rules that specifically states which special ability is considered first in this situation.  The thing that covers this is the "both players throw a d20, and the winner decides."

Of course, if I were fielding the Crystal Lotus Elves, I would go with 6.  Were my opponent, I'd have to say 7.

Seriously, I don't think this has a cut and dry answer.  I know I'm stumped, and I play this game a lot.  Regardless of the answer, and I hope Southpaw chimes in, I know I will field this cool combination when I run Crystal Lotus!!!!
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2007, 01:38:17 PM »
You always count the abilities of the model 1st than add/subtract abilities of other models/banners/etc. Thats as clean cut as it gets. ;D
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Offline troy-the-just

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2007, 06:25:38 PM »
You always count the abilities of the model 1st than add/subtract abilities of other models/banners/etc. Thats as clean cut as it gets. ;D
[/quote

the ability of the model being attacked?  so, the dream warriors go first?  my thought has always been, the crystal knights is a radius effect, so the attacking unit counters it first, reducing his cc by 2 while he is in the radius, if he happens to attack a dream warrior while in that radius, his reduced cc is halved.

i can see the wisdom of saying you are attacking the dream warriors, that halves your cc, oh, and by the way, you are within 4" of a crystal knight so take off two more

Offline DogOWar

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 06:41:45 PM »
You always count the abilities of the model 1st than add/subtract abilities of other models/banners/etc. Thats as clean cut as it gets. ;D
That is the way I've always seen it.
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 07:29:18 PM »
If it was me, I would work it just as you were solving a mathematical equation, which is exactly what this is.

1. Multiply
2. Divide
3. Add
4. Subtract

So if I was judging this scenario, I would divide the CC in half (rounded up), then subtract 2, giving a to-hit of 6.

Yes, the 1/2 then subtracting 2 does favor the elves in this situation, as it rightly should, in my opinion. Anyone foolish enough to get caught between Dream Warriors AND a Crystal Knight deserves exactly what they get.  ;D

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 07:31:07 PM by Southpaw »
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Offline Dr. Nick

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2007, 09:22:50 PM »
i think the area effect comes first:

-2 in all cases.

than IF you attack a dw, your chances are 1/2

the 1/2 is the result of phasing out, something like a game of luck (50/50ish)
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Offline Southpaw

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2007, 04:23:06 AM »
i think the area effect comes first:

-2 in all cases.

than IF you attack a dw, your chances are 1/2

the 1/2 is the result of phasing out, something like a game of luck (50/50ish)

I agree, to a point. The -2 is in effect at all times, that is not an issue. What IS an issue, is when they are attacking the Dream Warrior in the radius of a Crystal Knight, you then have multiple effects competing to resolve each other. In this situation, I would think that the divide then subtract solution works for 2 reasons.

1. It agrees with math rules for solving similar problems.

2. It also, to me, would fit the rules for the situation. The model is attacking the Dream Warrior first, he is the primary target, therefore his penalties resolve first. Then the -2 for the Crystal Knight takes effect, since he is within the area of effect, but the Knight is not the primary target.

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Offline troy-the-just

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2007, 09:16:26 AM »
i like southpaws reasoning, a little more mathmatical then mine, so dog, i assume we are going this way?  if so, you can count on my crystal knights being surrounded by a warband or 2 of dream warriors at all times!

really, it may favor the elves, but look at them, they dont have all the perks, etc. the other races have, and this only applies to the crystal house. 

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2007, 09:25:24 AM »
The Crystal Lotus house is difficult enough to play as it is, so I don't think this gives them some unfair advantage.  It does make everyone reading this want to try this tactic!
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Offline Coil

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2007, 09:36:50 AM »
I would go with the math line of reasoning.

Josh, CL are are great house. I'd say that Helios or Jade is the weakest Elven house.

Offline joshuaslater

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2007, 11:02:16 AM »
I've been doing okay with Helios.  They can hold their own.  I haven't played Jade House yet, but next spring I'll prime all my swamp goblins and start with them.
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Offline troy-the-just

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2007, 12:15:04 PM »
i havent played helios, ( i do like the stats on keeper of the flame sisterI am intrigued by the jade.  certainly the obsidian serpant house is very tough, but more in your face tough.  eventually, (and this will be a while as i have dwarves up next), id like to complete sets on all of the elven houses, so i can see which ones i do like best.  dog has helios, ill play them sometime, i do like the jade elves possibilities with the swampies, should be fun.

Offline DogOWar

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2007, 02:39:01 PM »
i like southpaws reasoning, a little more mathmatical then mine, so dog, i assume we are going this way? if so, you can count on my crystal knights being surrounded by a warband or 2 of dream warriors at all times!

really, it may favor the elves, but look at them, they dont have all the perks, etc. the other races have, and this only applies to the crystal house.
     6 is what I thought it would be in any case.  You know my feelings about the Elves Troy, especially the CL and Helios.  I Have always said (Yes Troy, once again ;D) "You have to keep the individuals with the warbands".  Doing this maximzes both.  The elvish individuals, while extremely cool, are not the the best in armour or wounds compared to most armies (also, not as exspensive either), so are not the best when played solo.  Also, Their special abilities work best with warbands.  I ALWAYS keep my Helios Indiv. next to a warband.  Combined arms is they only way to go for the elves.
i havent played helios, ( i do like the stats on keeper of the flame sisterI am intrigued by the jade. certainly the obsidian serpant house is very tough, but more in your face tough. eventually, (and this will be a while as i have dwarves up next), id like to complete sets on all of the elven houses, so i can see which ones i do like best. dog has helios, ill play them sometime, i do like the jade elves possibilities with the swampies, should be fun.

You can play Helios anytime you wnat Troy.
i like southpaws reasoning, a little more mathmatical then mine, so dog, i assume we are going this way? if so, you can count on my crystal knights being surrounded by a warband or 2 of dream warriors at all times!

really, it may favor the elves, but look at them, they dont have all the perks, etc. the other races have, and this only applies to the crystal house.

     If you remember correctly Troy, I pointed this (Crystal Knight/Dream Warrior) out to you when Canonball's FB defended that hill fort you and I were attacking.  In fact I thought you used it then (it has been a while).  You just never seemed to like the Crystal Knight that much, until recently.  I have always said (Yes Troy, once again ;D) that the Dream Warriors are one of the best units (arguably the best) in the game.  They are Very hard to hit(especially by missile troops), have a two-handed sword, FEINT, and magic resistance, and are only cost 35 pts.  Thats one helluva combo. 
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Offline troy-the-just

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Re: dream warriors and crystal knights
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2007, 06:39:24 PM »
your right chris, that was like 2-3 years ago, and like the second or third time i had played. i was still comparing lotus individuals to firstborn indivuals, there really isnt any comparison, i wasnt taking army as a whole.  that repulsar knight is still terrifying.  i should always listen to you, ill have to tell your wife that as well, see you next saturday