Author Topic: What about a VDR supplement?  (Read 8391 times)

Offline Dragon62

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What about a VDR supplement?
« on: September 28, 2005, 04:28:51 PM »
Since there are alot of options on the use of tanks and other vehicles what about a optional VDR supplement to have point legal vehicles for those who wish to use them. This would also mean players would have to agree to use them since it is optional.
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Offline Topkick

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2005, 04:47:24 PM »
Define VDR
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Offline Dragon62

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2005, 04:50:05 PM »
Vehicle Design Rules giving point cost for vehicle type, speed, wounds, weapons,etc;
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Offline Topkick

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2005, 04:51:41 PM »
Thanks for the definition
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Offline PFC joe

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2005, 05:26:49 PM »
Last I heard, the Vehicle rules were just an extension of the base Rubric.  I don't think that that's gonna be let go of so easily.

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Offline Steel Rabbit

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2005, 05:55:36 PM »
I don't think EE'd be up to that at the moment, I'm sure they're plenty busy. BUT if it were to become a fan project and by no way endorsed for tourny play (the same way the guys at Alternity.net do things) I could see that being kinda cool. I just wouldn't hold my breath on an official stamp or supp.

Offline kwegibu

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2005, 08:21:41 PM »
i was bored in class one day and tried to reverse engineer the point system (if i recall grumpel said there was actually one used, i think) like that one guy did rather well for 2nd edition.

Totally got nowhere several classes later. So good luck doing it as a fan project and keeping it balanced, what a headache. Maybe I did get somewhere, because I think I got a feel for the kinds of things that mattered and which were more important; I just couldn't find any distinct patterns to derive solid values from. Which is good, that means the units are very diverse!

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2005, 08:36:09 PM »
The UWZ system is bound and tied to the Rubric.  and I tried the same thing, sitting in class and trying to crack it.  The only hint I can give you is that the Rubric isn't limited to Whole number integers.  You can get pretty far, there are just a few SA's that are really hard to peg.

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Offline Pietia

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2005, 11:16:06 PM »
Well, guys - if you want to crack the system, start with weapons and SAs. After you "normalize" unit cost by subtracting the cost of SAs (and weapons), it gets pretty easy and very much like 2nd edition (only with fractional values). Do not be surprised, thought, when you'll discover that e.g. SAs that add to LD in specific situations cost more than LD itself  ;D . Some SA costs seem to be very similar to the equipment that grants them (e.g. Enhanced Sensor Array and Predator Senses).
The biggest problem is with three elements:
-weapons, which have fractional costs too - e.g. an assault rifle seems to cost between 3.6 and 4.4 points, depending on the stat line. It would be rather difficult to reverse-engineer weapon cost formula. The weapon costs however, are constant - two guys with 6 RC and 12 RC will pay the same for an M-50 (the same is true for SAs, guys who have no use for an SA will pay the same as units getting great benefits from them);
-vehicles (not enough data due to small number of vehicles)
-size 4-6 fuglies (price of wounds seems to increase for each subsequent wound, but its difficult to determine the costs of some SAs).

Offline Seamus

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2005, 04:05:55 AM »
i was bored in class one day and tried to reverse engineer the point system (if i recall grumpel said there was actually one used, i think) like that one guy did rather well for 2nd edition.

Totally got nowhere several classes later. So good luck doing it as a fan project and keeping it balanced, what a headache. Maybe I did get somewhere, because I think I got a feel for the kinds of things that mattered and which were more important; I just couldn't find any distinct patterns to derive solid values from. Which is good, that means the units are very diverse!

As was stated by Grumpel, the system used to generate points is almost impossible to reverse engineer due to the fact that it is a system and uses more than one algorythm.  As Pietia found out, some items have different point costs dependent on several other factors such as wounds and size.

I was shown the program that Grumpel used and couple of the base algorythms and I must say that it was pure genius.  Even having seen some of the program first hand, I couldn't duplicate it and I am a programmer.  The system is almost too good though as given two equally skilled opponents, in almost every game, the number of points killed on each side is almost the exactly the same.  However, it does produce a balanced force list in that statistically two equally pointed forces will dish out and receive the same number of wounds.

The only unbalancing factor I have seen in UWZ is the various powers.  Some of them seem to be worth much more than their point cost would indicate and I think that the point cost for them was created and added in after the program.  Even so, they don't upset the balance that heavily and a non-power using force can still beat a force that has powers.  Largely because the game is based on the premise that even the lowliest grunts can throw enough lead to bring down the largest of fuglies.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2005, 04:18:18 AM by Seamus »
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Offline Pietia

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2005, 06:05:46 AM »
Well, I wouldn't call this a pure genius - some SAs are clearly overpriced (Ducal Militia vs Freedom Brigades case, where Ducals get +2 to LD AND AR AND superior rifle for the same cost the Freedom Brigadiers get +2 to LD in some specific situations), some units have "dangerously attractive" prices (basically anything small with MHMG - Necromowers, Vulkans, Great Greys)... A lot of elements seem to be added or altered at a stage, at which the point system has been already finished - Legion powers, Legion and BH fire missions, effects of AV weapons.. The system is complex - that's true, in most cases it produces forces which are more or less balanced under certain conditions. Pure genius? Nope, definitly not. Complicated? In the case of large guys - yes, for the SZ2 and most of the SZ3 infantry the system is very easy to reverse-engineer, as I've written before - for 48 models on which I tested my estimates for weapon, skill and characteristics cost I had roughly 90% of "hit rate" (error less than 1.5 PC). That's enough for me - I have no desire to create new fuglies or units and worked on the reverse engineering only because I was bored one evening. With enough data EVERYTHING can be reverse engineered, Seamus. Come on, people out there are actually reverse engineering DNA ;)  , reverse engineering of a system which transforms few integers and a set of abilities into a single number is nothing in comparison to that.

There are some problems with the army lists - it seems, that there's a number of units, which were burdened with "not really useful" SAs, which cost a lot of points and do not contribute too much to the combat effectiveness of those units in a typical situation, and some which are "combat optimized" - no SAs, but very well selected statistics and weapons. Some units have been assigned very efficient sets of SAs and combat gear (and stats) - e.g. Praetorian Stalkers, while some have useless skills (e.g. Feast on Carnal Harvester - come on, this guy isn't going to kill anybody in CC with his LMG). The system definitly does not take synergy into account, paradeploying single-wound assault rifle toting guy (pretty much useless at short distances) and multi-wound-armored-like-hell nightmare armed with HMG costs roughly the same (with the cost of the HMG nightmare raised by assigning him Predator Senses).

The point system could use some work, but nevertheless it is one of the best PC systems I've seen. However, if I were designing it, I'd do things the other way round - not base the formulas on playtesting results, but rather develop the PC system, use it to determine unit costs and THEN modify the costs according to the results of playtesting. Just my opinion :-) , but real intelligence beats formulas every time.

Offline T Prime

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Re: What about a VDR supplement?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2005, 10:54:20 AM »
It is genius...and I should know.   ;)
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