Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: chribu on June 05, 2006, 04:51:30 AM
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Can a directly placed template weapon (e.g. FT and shotgun) be used while engaged in CC?
Disciples for example only have the shot pistol. Can they use that after an enemy engages them in CC or do they need to break away first?
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The answer is no they can't be used.
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thought so... just checking :)
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Just to verify, they would need to break away and then shoot.
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Correct
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"if no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's"
the psuedo-ruling from a while back.
-PFC joe
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Uhm the Disciples Shot Pistol is a one handed firearm i think... but it still can't be used in CC so disciples can make an unarmed CC attack at -4CC and ST DAM, right?
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If you really want to hit at 2CC and 4 DAM, be my guest.
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Well, if I have a 8 model disciple squad, 1 model is engaged in CC with an enemy model (last one on the table) and hasn't managed to break away with it's 3 actions, i have 7 models left.
They can
A) do nothing and WAIT (thus on the enemy model's next activation they will probably kill him, but only after he's killed my model)
B) try and shoot with the shotguns on the 2 models in CC, thus having a chance to kill my one too
C) try a couple of CC attacks each at the enemy model.
I think option C is the one that gives me the best chances at killing the enemy unit without losing my one.
Oh, and the previous scenario has happened to me twice in the last week!
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erm...
you'd have a lot better chance dog piling him than you would Shooting into CC.
They're Grunts, so you'd have to make the prerequisite LD test to shoot into CC. Which is a -8. given their stellar LD of 10...
all in all, I'd go for the gangbeating.
-PFC joe
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uhm
last time you said
Are you allowed to use a template weapon (lets say a flamer) if you hit a friendly model, too?
If you are going to hit a friendly model with a template you must first pass a LD test at -8 before you can fire. (Unscrupulous ignores that). if you fail you lose the rest of your actions for this turn. There is no additional test, only the -8 one. You must make this test for each time you wish to fire into CC (only once for multipe ROF weapons).
-PFC joe
so i thought... just 1 test, not 2...
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Whoops! i know I remembered just after i said that, and tried to find the previous post!...
goes back and edits the last comment.!
-PFC joe
-sorry a bit rusty-
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;) Thanks for everything anyway, as usual!
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"if no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's"
-PFC joe
Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's ....
Belzerach and Scythe of Semai HMG have integrated bayonets... that means, Belzerach`s DAM in CC is 11 and DAM 13 for Scythe of Semai?
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Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's ....
Belzerach and Scythe of Semai HMG have integrated bayonets... that means, Belzerach`s DAM in CC is 11 and DAM 13 for Scythe of Semai?
This was a type-o. Its user Str + bayonet damage; Which means that a Militia with a bayonet is doing a Str 6 hit on a charge (str4 +1 for bayonet +1 for charge)
It says clearly in the rules about Side Arms being usable... and that anything bigger than a SIDEARM was essentially an expensive club.
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Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's ....
(..)
This was a type-o. Its user Str + bayonet damage; Which means that a Militia with a bayonet is doing a Str 6 hit on a charge (str4 +1 for bayonet +1 for charge)
It says clearly in the rules about Side Arms being usable... and that anything bigger than a SIDEARM was essentially an expensive club.
is this true?
the AG-17 has CC-3 dam11 stats
-> if you use your assault rifle without a bayonet you only do dam4 + x ?
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It says clearly in the rules about Side Arms being usable... and that anything bigger than a SIDEARM was essentially an expensive club.
Ok, but, some rules says: Assault rifles are, with the exception of the elzerach and the Yari Shogun, unwieldy in CC. Yari have bayonet and its DAM in profile is ST+6, belzerach does not and belzerach can't mount any load-out..
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No the Damage for the AR-17 would be 11 plus the Bayonet's bonus. The only time you use the -4CC ST of model is if you have no CC weapon. Then you are making a fist/club attack.
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No the Damage for the AR-17 would be 11 plus the Bayonet's bonus. The only time you use the -4CC ST of model is if you have no CC weapon. Then you are making a fist/club attack.
AR without bayonet is not CC weapon and DAM is ST, but AR with bayonet become to CC weapon and does full DAM + bayonet DAM bonus? Correct?
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AR without bayonet is not CC weapon and DAM is ST, but AR with bayonet become to CC weapon and does full DAM + bayonet DAM bonus? Correct?
If its correct, it is official faq?
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No the Damage for the AR-17 would be 11 plus the Bayonet's bonus. The only time you use the -4CC ST of model is if you have no CC weapon. Then you are making a fist/club attack.
Phil, This was covered before and clarified at a Tourney- iirc, you *were* there... especially when it was pointed out that it was absurd to think a bayonet adds to SHOOTING damage. ::)
Rifles are only meant to be clubs in CC, nothing more... unless its got a bayonet; then its a short pike.
If I have time today, I'll go looking for the comment on this somewhere on this board. I *know* it's come up before.
Twice.
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Rifles are only meant to be clubs in CC, nothing more... unless its got a bayonet; then its a short pike.
I figured as much. In the stats, Belzerach Rifles have 0 in CC as opposed to -4 for the Kratach, so a user can wield it rather effectively in CC.
I guess the damage would be +6 for the sectioner bayonet and whatever strength the wielder has.
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clearly the rules are missing a CC damage stat in their profile...
this is supported by the rules, since they actually say were to add the dam bonus:
+x to the DAM value of a rifles close combat score
???
imho, a rifle with CC -3/4 and a damage of ~4 (max 6+charge) is almost nothing..
a bayonet is at least as deadly as a bullet & pirces armor (well, Real Life armor) as good as a steel jacket and much better than a led pistol round (not to forget the huge wound capacity).
-> damage bonus to rifle DAM is not only fair but realistic :o
(esp if you compare to something like a sword. may be easier to handle, but a 3+ kg AR with a bayonet should do quite some damage...)
coupled with the low CC of most troops w.o. a CC weapon, it still makes the CC rifle inefficient enough.
beside: who uses them anyway? exept DL it is relatively expensive (LI+bayonet=HI PC)
the sectioner may add +6 DAM, but at 6 PC and exept the belzarach most rifles have -3/-4 (kratach -4)
(i agree that the belzarach+sectioner will be an extremly good CC weapon, but this is the only example (?).
apart from this case, i think dam 10-12 with ~-1 to -3 to CC (at cc~8 for normal troops) is really not too good..)
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a bayonet is at least as deadly as a bullet & pirces armor (well, Real Life armor) as good as a steel jacket and much better than a led pistol round (not to forget the huge wound capacity).
-> damage bonus to rifle DAM is not only fair but realistic :o
Ummm... no. The last thing any Grunt wants to be in is a "fist" fight. Pugil-stick training is meant to teach the basics of using the rifle in Hand To Hand prior to more formalized training.
And even then, it is stressed that the Bayonet is to be the last resort or for when the enemy is expected to be really close. The bayonet is *NOT* meant to suppliment the bullet. It is meant to be used when you CAN'T shoot the guy charging you or shooting him might be a bad idea.
THe only time you are pulling the trigger in H2H with a rifle is when and if the blade gets stuck in your target. Army Basic Training....
(esp if you compare to something like a sword. may be easier to handle, but a 3+ kg AR with a bayonet should do quite some damage...)
Oh sure.... a 3 Kilo rifle would do some damage- as much as a baseball bat would at best. The M-16 or AK-47 is not my choice for such festivities. The g3 or the M-14 might be though...
As a test aldrien, take a bat and swing it at a tree. Then hold it like a short pike & lunge at it like you were sticking someone. Imagine the blade at the end of it and tell me that it really does more than shooting the man would.
And by the way, modern Interceptor armor is highly reisistant to knife blades.
coupled with the low CC of most troops w.o. a CC weapon, it still makes the CC rifle inefficient enough.
Ummm... of course it sucks in CC- a rifle is meant to shot folks, not beat them in the head with... The Bayonet just allows it to do a little more damage if you need to do such.
beside: who uses them anyway? exept DL it is relatively expensive (LI+bayonet=HI PC)
Pauldron Hussars. And I have gotten troops charged by them in CC. It was rather annoying... And if my LI could use them, I would arm them with it. Because I am a fluffy player... and I know a good "Bayonet charge" can wreck a battleplan.
the sectioner may add +6 DAM, but at 6 PC and exept the belzarach most rifles have -3/-4 (kratach -4)
STR+6... with a 0 mod makes for dmg12 (str5 + 6 + 1 charge) on the charge. Pretty damn nice... and very brutal.
(i agree that the belzarach+sectioner will be an extremly good CC weapon, but this is the only example (?).
apart from this case, i think dam 10-12 with ~-1 to -3 to CC (at cc~8 for normal troops) is really not too good..)
No, its not good... but IRL, they are not good either.
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It was my understanding when this was decussed that the Clubing rule only applyed to weapons that had no CC modifier. Any weapon with a CC modifier was used in CC at whatever the Modifier was and Damage was as per weapon. The Damage is a combination of str and wieght of weapon. Exsample: I punch for ST dam. I pick up and swing with 2 Hands an Assult rifle common sense tells me it's not only going to do ST damage it's going to do more.
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It was my understanding when this was decussed that the Clubing rule only applyed to weapons that had no CC modifier. Any weapon with a CC modifier was used in CC at whatever the Modifier was and Damage was as per weapon. The Damage is a combination of str and wieght of weapon. Exsample: I punch for ST dam. I pick up and swing with 2 Hands an Assult rifle common sense tells me it's not only going to do ST damage it's going to do more.
per the book, no CC stat, no use in CC.
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Then Lets get the offical FAQ's Team to give an answer and include it in the FAQ's This has been dragged out Far enough. I check the FAQ's and this is not covered.
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a bayonet is at least as deadly as a bullet & pirces armor (well, Real Life armor) as good as a steel jacket and much better than a led pistol round (not to forget the huge wound capacity).
(...)
Ummm... no. The last thing any Grunt wants to be in is a "fist" fight. Pugil-stick training is meant to teach the basics of using the rifle in Hand To Hand prior to more formalized training.
And even then, it is stressed that the Bayonet is to be the last resort or for when the enemy is expected to be really close. The bayonet is *NOT* meant to suppliment the bullet. It is meant to be used when you CAN'T shoot the guy charging you or shooting him might be a bad idea.
i want to disagree+clarification
of course the grunt does not WANT to use it.
of course you use it when you must.
but: the damage capacity of a heavy bladed weapon is enourmouth.
a normal 5.56 bullet will often not always kill a person instantanious. it is rather not a manstopper.
wiki on 5.56:
There has been much criticism of the poor performance of the round, especially the first-round kill rate when using firearms that don't achieve the velocity to cause fragmentation. This typically becomes an issue at longer ranges (over 100 meters) or when penetrating heavy clothing, but this problem is compounded in shorter-barreled weapons. The 14.5-inch barrel of the U.S. military's M4 Carbine can be particularly prone to this problem. At short ranges, the round is reported to be mostly effective, and its tendency to fragment reduces the risk of "overpenetration" when used at close range. However, if the round is moving too slowly to reliably fragment on impact, the wound size and potential to incapacitate a target is greatly reduced.
in contrast, any weapon like a sword or bayonet will transfer much more energy because of the mass.
the stab is slower, but my 3 kg rifle, if stabed at a person is very very damaging.
a similar example is a longbow arrow. very slow (compared to a bullet) but a much higher energy transfer because of the mass.
for a longbow i found a german phd-work wich gives the longbow energy with 315 to 600 J / mm^2 at the target!!
a 5.56 nato has "only" 1785 J total!
-> a arrow with 0,88 cm^2 tip does have 88 mm^2 -> (with 400 J) 35200 J :o
also from this phd:
a arrow with 0,88 cm shaft diameter, if penetrating 26 cm (meat, or thin bone, no prob) results in a wound of ~72 cm^2
read this on bayonets:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030405072141/http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2116/bayonets.htm (nice!)
and this
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Bayonets.html
(esp if you compare to something like a sword. may be easier to handle, but a 3+ kg AR with a bayonet should do quite some damage...)
Oh sure.... a 3 Kilo rifle would do some damage- as much as a baseball bat would at best. The M-16 or AK-47 is not my choice for such festivities. The g3 or the M-14 might be though...
i don´t speak about a swing! its a stab with a 20+ cm long blade propelled by a man and a mass of 3+ kg!
oh, btw, a empty HG G3 weights 4,38 kg...
As a test aldrien, take a bat and swing it at a tree. Then hold it like a short pike & lunge at it like you were sticking someone. Imagine the blade at the end of it and tell me that it really does more than shooting the man would.
i do. the mass of 3000+ g compared to 5 g of a bullet is a lot.. not to forget: the bayonet will move in the wound and has sharp edges that will cut if you impale someone.
And by the way, modern Interceptor armor is highly reisistant to knife blades.
i wikied the interceptor, and well... it is a 7.5 kg armor with plates..
i did not find a text on blade penetration for plates, but a normal kevlar vest will provide almost no protection to a arrow or blade.
since the plates are designed to stop high velocity, low mass prjectiles, i can imagine that performance against such a high energy will be not very good..
in the phd they gave penetration dephts with ~11 cm if shot at the back of a dead pig, hitting the spinal colum.. :o (of course a 5.56 would also shatter that bone, but the arrow does not fragmentate)
-> i belive that a good arrow or bayonet thrust will pirce the armor
disclaimer: i read about the damage arrows and swords to (system shock role, anyone ;)) before, hence my 1. statement.
now, because you disbelived, i googled a little. i am neither a phsics person or a weapon fanatic.
what i found make me belive that, while a AR bullet are very deadly, so are bayonets
any soldiers around? veez?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/French_bayonet_charge.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Northwest_Mounted_Police_bayonetting.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/British_soldiers_in_a_trench.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Combat_knife_attached_to_gun.jpg)
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I dont know physics either but I am a former soldier.
1. If someone gets into range to use a bayonette on you, you failed in your job to begin with,
2. Kevlar is designed to stop a bullet but it can blunt the edge of a blade enough to keep it from penetrating.
3. A blade is a LAST DITCH weapon. Meant to give you a minimal chance of survival < 4% is better than 0%>
4. The bayonette is a supplemental weapon. To show this I would have it be Str + bayonette DAM not Str + Weapon Dam.
5. If the weapon cant be used in CC < too unwieldy, no CC score> then nothing can help it just dont let them get that close
6 The easiest way to remedy this is to give every weapon a weight. That way in CC if it doesnt have a CC stat it cant be used but if it does its very simple damage ie interceptor smg Wt 3 Dam = Str5 (Black Beret) + Wt3 = Dam 8
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Then Lets get the offical FAQ's Team to give an answer and include it in the FAQ's This has been dragged out Far enough. I check the FAQ's and this is not covered.
This has been discussed (many times) and is still a point of contention for most. The facts are that if a weapon has no CC score, then it may NOT be used in CC. Further, if a model has no CC-rated weapon, it may only cause damage by making a successful CC roll, doing the model's ST as DM.
The AG-17 has a CC (-3)score, and will do full DM in CC. Conversely, an AC-41 HMG has no CC score (--) and cannot be weilded in CC at all. Barring the model having a CC weapon, it can only attack in CC by punching it's target. Straight CC roll, ST DM.
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for a longbow i found a german phd-work wich gives the longbow energy with 315 to 600 J / mm^2 at the target!!
a 5.56 nato has "only" 1785 J total!
-> a arrow with 0,88 cm^2 tip does have 88 mm^2 -> (with 400 J) 35200 J :o
This math is faulty, in my opinion. Energy is measured at point of impact, not across the entire area of the flat sides of the arrowhead. Therefore, the bullet delivers much more, as the point of the arrowhead is similar, if not much less than the bullet.
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This is a game. Real-world physics are sacrificed for gameplay's sake. That said, the rules are the way that they are because someone designed them, playtested them, and presented them as a balanced way to push lead across the table and to determine whose army was getting sent back for retraining on any given Sunday.
Guys and gals, the arguments presented include the lethality of daggers at the end of barrels that are designed to deliver a projectile with enough force to incapacitate the enemy without throwing the user on it's hindquarters. Anyone watch Mythbusters? They proved that there is no such thing as a "manstopper." They proved that if a slug sent its target flying on impact, the same would happen to the firer (anyone hear of a guy named Newton?). Every action has an equal but opposite reaction. That is the simple physics.
The point of the matter is is that any properly wielded weapon is lethal. Kevlar will stop a knife, unless that knife is fired out of a cannon. Bulletproof vests are designed to absorb impact energy and redirect it. Flak vests - same. Armored suits present the projectile with more inertia than the force it delivers, dissipating energy.
AR is a combination of armor, target evasive manuevering and toughness/vulnerability. DM is a combination of actual damage (energy) delivered, accuracy (to take advantage of vulnerability) and determination of the attacker to inflict an incapacitating injury upon it's target. When DM meets AR, in combination with a little luck, a WD is done, or not, and the game moves on.
Thanks for allowing me this soapbox moment.
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Well typed sir!
My understanding of the game mechanic is as others have already said.
If the weapon has a CC modifier (not a - ) then it does the damage equal to the normal damage of the weapon as if it has been fired.
If it does not have a CC modifier it cannot be used in CC at all. I am unsure if the club rule was official or just a house ruling. I would suggest that it NOT be allowed.
The only option if the model does not have a CC weapon is to fight with his/her fists at -4 to CC and deal out damage equal to strength.
As an FAQ team member that would be my line of reasoning and also where I would place my vote.
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any soldiers around? veez?
Hello.
Aldrien Archer IS a soldier so you may want to listen to him. This is a game not a mathematical equation. The rules are there to provide a system that provides a guideline so the game is as smooth and enjoyable as possible. The real world points really are moot, the game is determined by tactics, skill, and dice. Just ask Dave McGee he rolled 15 three times in a row on a 20 sided die, I rolled 1 twice in a row. I had an entire squad of Jeagers in Valpurgius's LOS and should have wiped them but I missed the channel rolls. I should have won initiative most of the time with valpurgius's leadership. I didn't and all that added up to me losing the game. The math equations go out the window as soon as the game starts, just like battle plans as soon as the battle starts.
wmeredith.
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Thank You can we have this added to the FAQ's.
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(i agree that the belzarach+sectioner will be an extremly good CC weapon, but this is the only example (?).
apart from this case, i think dam 10-12 with ~-1 to -3 to CC (at cc~8 for normal troops) is really not too good..)
Belzerach cat`t mount any load-out, it has integrated bayonet and is no space to mount anything...
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(...) longbow energy with 315 to 600 J / mm^2 at the target!!
a arrow with 0,88 cm^2 tip does have 88 mm^2 -> (with 400 J) 35200 J :o
a 5.56 nato has "only" 1785 J total!
This math is faulty, in my opinion. Energy is measured at point of impact, not across the entire area of the flat sides of the arrowhead.
this math may be faulty, since it is not from the work, but mine.. ::)
however, the 0.88 cm^2 is from this scource and it defines the "front" part of the arrow, not the entire area of the flat sides of the arrowhead
to see the tables of energy, some arrows bolts in dead pigs (and internals) & other things: check out this:
http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=972557253&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=972557253.pdf
its the phd work about "Wundballistik bei Pfeilverletzungen" (woundballistics with/at(?) arrow-injuries)
it is german, but E0, E´ or ∆V is international..
its a very nice study about the effects of arrows on tissue
This is a game. Real-world physics are sacrificed for gameplay's sake. That said, the rules are the way that they are because someone designed them, playtested them, and presented them as a balanced way to push lead across the table and to determine whose army was getting sent back for retraining on any given Sunday.
i agree, since a grunt is incapacitated only ~60% after an AR hit..
but i can´t see any abousive potential by giving the bayonet a (imho well deserved) higher damage than 4-6 + charge)
(oh, and true, the Belzerach can´t mount the sectioner.. :))
Anyone watch Mythbusters? They proved that there is no such thing as a "manstopper." They proved that if a slug sent its target flying on impact, the same would happen to the firer (anyone hear of a guy named Newton?). Every action has an equal but opposite reaction. That is the simple physics.
when i wrote manstopper i ment to say "instant-killer" i am well aware of the physics of a canon (or rocket, or gun..).
Kevlar will stop a knife, unless that knife is fired out of a cannon.
that is not true. just special vests do that, and that is not because of the kevlar.
Dupont sells the "Kevlar® MTP™ Technology" wich is stab resistant.. (Multible Thread Protection)
(somehow better interwoven / composite...)
also, a prison guard vest with special stab-resistance:
http://www2.dupont.com/Kevlar/en_US/assets/downloads/H-95657--KEVLAR_CORRECTIONAL_Brochure.pdf
-> "basic" kevlar(vest) is very pulling resistent and a deforming projectile will not penetrage.
a FMJ (or armor pircing round, which, by principle, does not deform) or a knife will cut through.
==> anyway: i just want to say:
1. a bayonet stab or an arrow hit is at least as deadly as a 5.56 bullet. (i know you don´t agree, but you did not prove your position)
2. if an AR killes a grunt (A18) only 60% a bayonet with DAM 4(ST)+1(bladed)+1(charge) -> 40 % is very weak, esp if you think about the CC -3/4
check this pics again. i rather have the (empty) gun +bayonet (CC~-3, Dam +1(bladed)) than the bowie combat knife (CC+3, DAM+2)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Northwest_Mounted_Police_bayonetting.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Combat_knife_attached_to_gun.jpg)
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This is a game...
I just had to post this again - I wanted to make sure that I was clear when I say that real-world is not the model. The game is not an accurate simulation. It is a nicely playable set of rules that allow balanced forces (much like chess, where castles move) to do battle allowing players to match wits as well as luck.
If you are looking for the game to be made more accurately, you're in for a wait, my friend. :)
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i know we will not have a revision..
but since bayonet rules are not clearly ruled, it would be possible to rule it like many ppl. think:
AR (or any weapon with a CC stat) do their normal damage in CC+bayonet bonus
i merly wanted to argue that 10+x is more realistic than ST+x
but i can´t see any abousive potential by giving the bayonet a (imho well deserved) higher damage than 4-6 + charge)
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You must first remember that all a bullet is, is a knife with more force behind it.
You will never convince me that a knife bayonette dagger has MORE killing potential than a 5.56 round. And if you want to be totally accurate youd have to put a minus to RC when the bayonette is attached as it makes the gun LESS accurate.
Ill make a deal with you. When next we meet Ill bring a rifle and you can bring a knife and we can find out how close you get ;D Thats why theres the saying "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"
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You will never convince me that a knife bayonette dagger has MORE killing potential than a 5.56 round.
:-\
but you can not say i did not try...
(well, perhaps not more, but not much less, if at all)
all a bullet is, is a knife with more force behind it
that is not the case. the (FMJ) bullet is much quicker, weights ~5g and does its most efficient killing damage by fragmentating. (see abough the wiki citation about the opinion about the 1. round killing potential of 5.56)
the bayonet weights ~4000 g, is much slower and creates a very big cutting wound
the last thing i can say is, research a little about the damage potential of "antique" weapons.
when i did (years ago, because RPG), i got my opinion i tried to spread here (and now my reserch for this thread reassured me..).
(oh, the PHD work i mentioned has a chapter about murder. a crossbow is a "common" murder tool here (its free to buy, unlike guns). its efficiency is 14 of 15 cases discussed .. i do belive that a bayonet stab is not less damaging...)
but, as you said:
You will never convince me (..)
if you want to be totally accurate youd have to put a minus to RC when the bayonette is attached as it makes the gun LESS accurate.
thats true
Ill make a deal with you. When next we meet Ill bring a rifle and you can bring a knife and we can find out how close you get ;D
::) ::) ::)
that is so totaly not the point...
i already wrote
of course the grunt does not WANT to use it.
of course you use it when you must.
i make another offer to you:
i bring a rifle+bayonet and you a gun.
first i stab you, and then you can shoot me... ;)
cu´s
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Wedge a FAQ's team member has clearly answered this. If a weapon has a CC modifier it can be used in CC and does Damage equal to normal damage. If a weapon has no modifier it can not be used in CC. So Bayonet dam would be normal weapon damage plus Bayonet bonus.
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Wedge a FAQ's team member has clearly answered this. If a weapon has a CC modifier it can be used in CC and does Damage equal to normal damage. If a weapon has no modifier it can not be used in CC. So Bayonet dam would be normal weapon damage plus Bayonet bonus.
Yes I can sign under that :)
Aldrien
Look at 2nd edition of Warzone. Stats in 3rd ed. is mostly same as 2nd ed. Why does not exists equivalent FAQ for 2nd edition?
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Hello
Aldrien, I am not a soldier so I won't make many claims. But from what I have heard the 5.56 round is desihned to incompacitate as well as kill . A dead soilder does not cause as much drian on resources as a wounded one who needs medical attention and transport .
wmeredth
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Wedge a FAQ's team member has clearly answered this. If a weapon has a CC modifier it can be used in CC and does Damage equal to normal damage. If a weapon has no modifier it can not be used in CC. So Bayonet dam would be normal weapon damage plus Bayonet bonus.
Allright, so a Belzarach with bayonet can inflict 11 plus bayonet bonus, yes?
Belzerach cat`t mount any load-out, it has integrated bayonet and is no space to mount anything...
This is what get's me. Belzerach's can't have load outs and can't add any bayonets. But I've read somewhere (can't remember off the top of my head) that they have sectioners built in. I could be wrong, but can they?
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Allright, so a Belzarach with bayonet can inflict 11 plus bayonet bonus, yes?
Belzerachs and scythe of semai have integrated bayonets, that figures in weapon stats I think.. (better chance to hit)
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Correct it cant have a loadout and the bonus is already figured in hense CC-0 no minus. :'(
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Correct it cant have a loadout and the bonus is already figured in hense CC-0 no minus. :'(
Which means on the charge... its dam 17 @ +1 to hit.
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i think that is not the case.
at p131f it says that only belzarach & Yari AR are wieldy in CC
however, special rules for yari say +6 dam due to bayonet.
this is missing with the belzarach -> dam11+charge
on what page it says again that it has an integrated bayonet (and esp. the sectioner? the bayonet alone cost 6 P surely a sectioner-less necromutant can´t cost 11 P??)?
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CC/Dam are already included same with Scythe of Semai.
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i think that is not the case.
at p131f it says that only belzarach & Yari AR are wieldy in CC
however, special rules for yari say +6 dam due to bayonet.
this is missing with the belzarach -> dam11+charge
on what page it says again that it has an integrated bayonet (and esp. the sectioner? the bayonet alone cost 6 P surely a sectioner-less necromutant can´t cost 11 P??)?
I think that there is some confusion, here. The Yari gains ST + DM in CC due to Yari, not DM + 6.
I cannot find any mention of the Belzarach (nor Kratach) having an integrated bayonet. komplikator, where do you get your information?
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Dave the Belzarach has always had an built in blade as does the Scythe of semai check page 481 there's a picture of the weapon and under the weapons descriptions the scythe says it has a blade but the Belzarach omitted that fact, but the blade is already figured into the weapon's stat. Dam for Yari ends up being 10 same as weapon damage.
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komplikator, where do you get your information?
As wrote dragon62, check dark legion armory section, look at pics ad read descriptions...
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Descriptions are fluff. Nowhere, in the weapons Section, does it make mention of the Scythe of Semai having a blade. Both the Belzarach and the Scythe have a CC mod of 0, but that just means that in CC they do the same DM as if they were fired. There is no SA of slashing, rending, etc., just a CC of 0.
I am not trying to come down on this. With their CC 0, they are impressive weapons in CC - but they do not get any SA for their "blades."
One other note - the pics show blades, but, I have seen plenty of Belzarachs on Legionnaires that have no blades, and Scythes whose blades are not even close to three feet long (in scale) so the argument on that is definitely up for grabs.
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As I stated above Dave the Blades are already figured into the weapons there's no additional bonus.
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I misunderstood, Phil. I thought that the debate was whether the blades added a bonus to the listed DM. Thanks for clarifying.
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Sorry did'nt mean to sound harsh this decussion does'nt seam to want to end. ;)
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You didn't sound harsh - I was worried I might be coming across as a "friggin'-know-it-all." No worries. ;D
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Descriptions are fluff. Nowhere, in the weapons Section, does it make mention of the Scythe of Semai having a blade. Both the Belzarach and the Scythe have a CC mod of 0, but that just means that in CC they do the same DM as if they were fired. There is no SA of slashing, rending, etc., just a CC of 0.
I am not trying to come down on this. With their CC 0, they are impressive weapons in CC - but they do not get any SA for their "blades."
One other note - the pics show blades, but, I have seen plenty of Belzarachs on Legionnaires that have no blades, and Scythes whose blades are not even close to three feet long (in scale) so the argument on that is definitely up for grabs.
That's likely because they are considered sturdy weapons for knocking someone upside the head with a buttstroke.
At any rate, the following is culled word for word from my file of the pre-release rules and checked against teh released book... Both match so I know there was no change in this between final testing and printing. I may sound a bit harsh... but its because I went and did the stinkin' research when I really should not have had to.
Section 8.5, page 49 (top of page)
Unless otherwise stated in a model’s profile, models may not make Ranged Combat attacks while engaged in Close Combat. Nor can they use any special equipment that is not related to Close Combat while engaged in Close Combat. Items that require no active effort on the part of the user (such as gas masks and environmental suits) are an exception to this rule.
Section 21, page 127 under heading of Close Combat:
"This range comes into play when a model is in Base contact with an enemy model and attempting to use an equipped weapon on that enemy model. While Melee Weapons are best at these ranges, most other weapons suffer problems. Sidearms are compact enough to allow a model to use it in Close Combat Range to shoot an opponent with greater Penetration and Harm, which is reflected in their bonus to hit. ALL OTHER WEAPON TYPES, with the exception of SOME SPECIAL) are difficult to use at close combat range, with the butt of a weapon's stock being used to bludgeon an opponent, since the barrel cannot be brought to bear at an enemy that is so close."/[/i][
Further More, it mentions at the start of Section 21.3 that rifles can only be used as AdHoc clubs in Close Combat and that rifles with the exception of the Yari and theBelzarach, are unwieldly in CC.
This alludes to the thought/belief that the damage of a rifle in CC is the model STR score + bonus for charging/extra models. Bayonet's description (Section 21.8 on page 141 in the box marked Bayonets) says it adds + to CC Value and or + to DM of a Rifles Close combat score, which has been established as the CC modifier and model strength for to hit/damage (IE: if you can't shoot him, you are therefore clubbing him using the model str for damage) respectively. For Example: AC19 Volcano on a brotherhood trooper : Cc -4, DM 4 (str of trooper)
Adding a bladed bayonet (+1CC/+1 Dam) makes the Volcano a -3CC/4+1 before any charge bonuses.
The Sectioner…yep, adds 6 points of Damage in CC… but nothing to the CC score. The Belzarach cannot take a loadout and as mentioned, it is supposedly built in like the Yari Shogun bayonet is. I can accept this very willingly… and would play it as such.
Now…. <insert sarcastic acidic tone here> What part of the above says that one uses the SHOOTING DAMAGE when a bayonet is used? Where have I missed a reference in the book? GIVE ME A PAGE reference please.</end tone>
If someone would read the book and see what's written (and yes, maybe it should have been clarified a bit better… but come on people- use the grey matter between your ears!!), the answer to this particular question is readily apparent and if someone had bothered to read a little bit more, this arguement would have been a non-starter. >:(
Thank you for reading.
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nice and sweet, but in the faq from 2006-06-14 it says:
Unarmed attack
If no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may
make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat
weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon
damage plus any bonus's.
-PFC joe
also, in the page per page faq (new from 10/04/2004) it says:
Page 120 & 127: Ranged Weapons Used in Close Combat
Q: How can I tell if a weapon can be fired in close combat, verses being used like a club? What is the
damage if I do use it like a club?
A: If the weapon has a modifier listed under its CC category, it can be used in close combat and does
the listed amount of damage. It is assumed you'd be using the weapon in the most effective manor,
whether by shooting it or using it as a club.
If the weapon has a dash, it cannot be used at all. The wielder would not be able to use it to
effectively attack in close combat. Models with no usable weapon and no close combat weapon may
not fight in CC.
Adding a bladed bayonet (+1CC/+1 Dam) makes the Volcano a -3CC/4+1 before any charge bonuses.
if the faq (and PFC joe) is right, you aren´t here in your rant.
-> i belive that is where the question came from..
but come on people- use the grey matter between your ears!!), the answer to this particular question is readily apparent and if someone had bothered to read a little bit more, this arguement would have been a non-starter.
if you read the faq´s you would have known where the confusion came from...
I am sorry, but this time i am going to smite you..
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Side arms are the only shooting weapons that use their damage in CC as you can shoot with them
PER THE RULE BOOK (section 21.3, page 131) Rifles are only adhoc clubs.
And to pull from the page you quoted (page 120) it states:
Weapon Damage
The Damage of a Weapon is dependant upon the situation. While in Close Combat, a weapons damage is derived from the Strength (ST) value of the model striking with it (unless its a Sidearm, which relies on the bullets to do the damage). The better or more deadly the Melee weapon is, the greater the bonus to the model's ST value.
Word for word and it clearly... CLEARLY... answers the question of the damage a non-Sidearm firearm does in CC.
As I have maintained all along... and Aldrien- thank you for providing the page in which to properly give you the official rule for that. I had forgotten about that particular page.
Care to dispute that one? :D :D :D
btw- no worries on the Smite- you believe I am wrong in what I am saying...thought I offended you. You acted accordingly, which is fine. I have not acted in that fashion towards you as I am not offended. Fustrated that you don't understand the rule on this but it happens. Granted, it is a bit scattered over seperate pages but all support each other.
Remember, FAQ's are only meant a supplimental rulings for things believed to be misunderstood/obscure and even THEY (the FAQ rulings) can be wrong; I've helped correct more than a few entries early on. ;D
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Care to dispute that one? :D :D :D
i never wanted to dispute, but state my opinion that ST+Bayonet is too low, imho.
btw- no worries on the Smite- you believe I am wrong in what I am saying...
no, i don´t belive you are wrong. and if the (revised) faq says ST+bayonet bonus i will play it like that
(since i never use bayonets ;))
i smited you because (how) you said that not reading enough was the reason for that argument.
Fustrated that you don't understand the rule on this.
Remember, FAQ's are only meant a supplimental rulings for things believe to be misunderstood/obscure and even THEY can be wrong. ;D
i understand that rule, but since noone mentioned an error in the faq, i assumed it was still correct
also, i only cited the faqs, because i wanted to make clear that the argument may be based upon the faqs phrase:
Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage
now, don´t get me wrong, i am not angry or something!!
just think, many others had the two FAQs in the head and that´s why noone thought it would be obviouse that ST+bonus is right.
(is it?? ;))
cu´s
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i smited you because (how) you said that not reading enough was the reason for that argument.
No worries... is why I inserted "Sarcastic Tone" as it was meant as a humorous note; I knew it sounded as sarcasm but sometimes there is no better way to get a point accross.
And Aldrien, I have met waaaaaaaaaaaay too many people who don't read the rule book looking for answers first and or relying on supplimental stuff without checking on the subject first. I have a problem with those sorts of folks... a minor one but a problem none the less.
Fustrated that you don't understand the rule on this.
Remember, FAQ's are only meant a supplimental rulings for things believe to be misunderstood/obscure and even THEY can be wrong. ;D
i understand that rule, but since noone mentioned an error in the faq, i assumed it was still correct
also, i only cited the faqs, because i wanted to make clear that the argument may be based upon the faqs phrase:
Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage
It is a badly made ruling and compounded by not spelling it out or referencing a page. It happens... and of course it makes for large misunderstandings/discussions. It needs to be fixed as the full description/explanation is right in this thread, taken straight from the relavent passages. I happen to be going to McGee's later today, I'll show him the info (if he has not seen this exchange) and let him bring it to the FAQ team for correction.
now, don´t get me wrong, i am not angry or something!!
just think, many others had the two FAQs in the head and that´s why noone thought it would be obviouse that ST+bonus is right.
(is it?? ;))
cu´s
No problem- I ran into the multiple FAQ issue in 40k games.... and that is very fustrating. Went to a GT once where the GW staff had a two-version-previous FAQ for reference... I would up giving them the up-to-date one I printed before I came to the event.
And yes, as I described it, it is ST +bonus. It's how it was tested by the crew and how it has been played by me in every game since the beta.
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John I not arguing that ST is a factor in CC Dam but I was always told and when CC came into play Dam was Weapon damage unless it was 'a CC weapon or Pistol/machine pistol. Page 131 yes says ad-hoc club but in reading the rule book your referance to page 120 is only about CC/Sidearms not Rifles. Rifles are referanced on page 50/51 8.7.5 and there is no referance there to the damage being ST. I have always been told the weapns damage in CC was a combination of ST plus the fact you were hitting them with the weapon hence same dam. If you look at the Yari which I know has a CC weapon built in the Damage is ST + 6 = 10 same as weapon Damage.
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John I not arguing that ST is a factor in CC Dam but I was always told and when CC came into play Dam was Weapon damage unless it was 'a CC weapon or Pistol/machine pistol. Page 131 yes says ad-hoc club but in reading the rule book your referance to page 120 is only about CC/Sidearms not Rifles. Rifles are referanced on page 50/51 8.7.5 and there is no referance there to the damage being ST. I have always been told the weapns damage in CC was a combination of ST plus the fact you were hitting them with the weapon hence same dam. If you look at the Yari which I know has a CC weapon built in the Damage is ST + 6 = 10 same as weapon Damage.
Phil, please read it again:
Weapon Damage
The Damage of a Weapon is dependant upon the situation. While in Close Combat, a weapons damage is derived from the Strength (ST) value of the model striking with it (unless its a Sidearm, which relies on the bullets to do the damage). The better or more deadly the Melee weapon is, the greater the bonus to the model's ST value.
The EXCEPTION to the Damage= ST + whatever is Sidearms.
The Yari, as stated in two places, is an exception due to it's integral bayonet. Which is why it's singled out in two places.
It is coincedence that it's CC dmg = its shooting damage. That's ALL that is.