Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: mchiao on September 24, 2005, 05:54:55 AM
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Is an action required for the medic speical ability. It is not stated in the rule book but I would imagine that would be the case. Just want to clarify it. Wink
thanks
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If it didn't, that would mean if his entire squad was killed, and were all within 2 inches of him, he could attempt to heal all of them and then do whatever he feels like with his three actions.
Wow.
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If it didn't, that would mean if his entire squad was killed, and were all within 2 inches of him, he could attempt to heal all of them and then do whatever he feels like with his three actions.
Wow.
I know. That would be way cool. Unbalanced but cool...
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Is an action required for the medic speical ability. It is not stated in the rule book but I would imagine that would be the case. Just want to clarify it. Wink
thanks
It is. This has been answered in the FAQ, if memory serves me correctly. The ability to assess and/or quickly treat an incapacitating wound requires that the medic spend an AC to perform. The medic may not try this more than once per model per turn. Failure indicates that the model is removed from the game (if this was the model's last WD).
Further, the rules state the roll for success must be below the medic's SA level - this is not correct. The roll must be equal to or below the medic's SA level.
ex. 1: Two model's have been wounded. One is within the Bauhaus Hussar medic's two inch range, the other is three inches away. He spends an AC attempting to use his medic SA on the closest model. He rolls a 6 - success! The model remains prone for the duration of the turn, and may spend an AC on it's next activation to either stand up or assume minimized presence (MP). The medic spends another AC to move towrd the other wounded model. On his third AC, he, again, attempts to treat a wounded model. This time, rolling a seven, the wounded model is considered lost (the wound was too grave).
ex. 2: On the following turn, two multi-wound models, within the medic's range, are wounded - one having one wound remaining, the other out of wounds and prone. Our heroic medic springs into action and attempts to heal the models. His first AC is successful, and the first wounded model may act normally on it's next activation. On his second AC, he attempts to heal the second wounded model, but fails his attempt. The wounded model is removed, as the medic is not allowed to attempt to heal the same model more than once per turn. The medic may use his remaining AC normally.
Hope this clears it up.
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What if there are more than 1 medic surrounding a wounded model? Can all three tries to save the model? or is it the model that is being saved have to be removed immediately when the 1st save is failed?
just wondering...
thanks
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What if there are more than 1 medic surrounding a wounded model? Can all three tries to save the model? or is it the model that is being saved have to be removed immediately when the 1st save is failed?
just wondering...
thanks
Good question. It would be my belief that more medics would equal a better chance of success, therefore, I (not EE or the FAQ team) would say that each medic would be allowed one attempt per model. That said, I cannot recall any units that are allowed more than one medic per squad. If there are that many squads that close together, I hope you're not playing jjdodger - his AP RL troops would light you up! ;)
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What if there are more than 1 medic surrounding a wounded model? Can all three tries to save the model? or is it the model that is being saved have to be removed immediately when the 1st save is failed?
just wondering...
thanks
Good question. It would be my belief that more medics would equal a better chance of success, therefore, I (not EE or the FAQ team) would say that each medic would be allowed one attempt per model. That said, I cannot recall any units that are allowed more than one medic per squad. If there are that many squads that close together, I hope you're not playing jjdodger - his AP RL troops would light you up! ;)
Imperial Regulars allows you to have up to 3 Medics. Not that they will save much...
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...my belief that more medics would equal a better chance of success, therefore, I (not EE or the FAQ team) would say that each medic would be allowed one attempt per model
::quickly backpedaling:: According to page 76, "If the roll is failed, the mini is removed from play, a casualty of war." As this happens immediately upon failure of the Medic roll, no other Medic is activated at that time (nor will be until the mini is removed), hence, only one medic per model per turn. This is my opinion (as much as I adore my Pauldron Hussar Medics). What to do in the case of a model that has been wounded, but still has one or more wounds left? I dunno - FAQ team?
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If a model is wounded to 0, a Medic may that turn spend an action to attempt to heal it back to one wound. If he fails the model is removed immediately. Mutilple medics do not work on the same wounded model like that.
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but what if the models has 4 wounds, and has taken 3 wounds? can each medic try once, and (if you have the dice of the gods), restore the model to full health? or can only 1 medic attempt to heal a model once per turn (ie, once the 1st medic tries, none of the others can try the same model)
Hope thats clear?
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Correct Dodge.
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uh chief..
saying "yes" to an either or question is my joke.
-PFC joe
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Apparently, Joe, I was unclear... :P
Restated, in multiple choice for easy answering, the questions are:
Queston #1:
Given a model, who normally has 4 wounds. this model loses 3, having 1 remaining. There are 3 medics in the area. Can:
A) Each medic try and restore a wound, hopefully bringing the model back up to full life.
B) Once the 1st model has tried, successful or not, the rest CANNOT try.
C) Once the 1st model has tried, the others can only try on a (circle one) SUCCESS / FAILURE
D) Other (Please explain in FULL detail):
Question #2
To complicate the issue more (just because I can), what if the model in question has Regenerate?
A) Either 1 medic can try, or he can regenerate, not both
B) Can all try, regardless of Succeses/Failures
C) 1 Regen attempt, and only 1 medic attempt
D) Other (Please explain in FULL detail):
Your grade will be based on a Die roll. ;D
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I interpret Prime's answer to jjdodger's unclear question as, "Correct, Dodge. Only one medic may attempt to heal any one given model - not matter how many wounds it has left. No other Medic may attempt to heal that particular model that turn."
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but what about regeneration? can a model be healed by a medic, AND regenerate in the same turn? what about other spells/abilities that allow the same?
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Yes, a model may be healed by a medic and attempt to regenerate in the same turn. Along the same lines the Cybertronic Survielor may use the ticker and then attmept to regenerate, making him one tough hombre to take down (Personal experiance on that one).
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if that is the case, why cant multiple medics heal multiple wounds on 1 model in 1 turn?
More specifically, why can a model heal itself, and the 1st medic put a wound back, but the 2nd cannot? Even worse, in the canse of the Surveiler, ticker puts back a wound, he regens a wound, and then a medic puts back a wound. Thats 3. Why cant a 2nd medic put back another?
I know the odds on there being that many medics together on the field are slim and none, but it could happen..
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I'm without my rule book at the moment so this is off the cuff, but as I recall medics can only restore a single wound to a target that has lost its last would and would be removed from the table at the end of the turn, if I'm correct then you cannot use medic on models that are still standing.
In short the medic ability confers the ability to keep someone in the fight, but just barely. This is why Art powers like exorsize wound, or the Ki power that restores wounds are vastly superior to Medic, since you don't have to be dying to benefit from them.
Once agian, this is off the cuff. If some one with more knowledge or access to supporting or disproving evidence from the rule book would like to chime in I would greatly appreciate it.
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A model that takes its last wound is not, necessarily, dead. It is incapacitated and is, for all intents and purposes, out of the fight.
Medics do not "heal" a model. Rather, they assess the extent of the wound(s) of the model. The Medic SA represents this like so; if the Medic makes his roll, the wound is not grave enough to remove the model from the fight, and he tells the model, "Ain't so bad - now git your arse back in the fight, soldier!" If he fails his roll, no amount of first aid will return this particular model to combat status - "Hang in 'til I can get you to the aid station, Private!" "Hang in soldier, you're gonna make it (no, he's not)" "Oops...heh, no worries. MEDIC!"
Being a former combat medic in the US Air Force, I can attest that this is what I did as a medic. I assessed, and, if able to get the soldier back in the fight, or stabilize him/her until he/she was able to receive better care, treated the immediate injury. In the case of GSW's (gunshot wounds), if it was non-life-threatening, I would get the bleeding under control and apply a compressing bandage to keep blood loss at a minimum. If there was a great chance that the soldier was going to die, I would not waste valuable medical supplies if they could be used to save another. This is what triage is all about - doing the most good for the most patients. The mnemonic we used was DIME - Delayed (treatment could wait, non-life-threatening), Immediate (treat now in order to save life/limb - may be downgraded to Delayed or Minimal if first-aid stabilizes patient), Minimal (put a bandage on it and go), and Expextant (expected to die, no matter what course is taken).
Examples:
Delayed - broken leg, loss of an eye, laceration with some loss of blood, loss of hearing, 2nd degree burns, etc.
Immediate - 3rd degree burns to less than 75% of body (cover and keep cool with water), blocked airway (perform tracheotomy and restore airflow), severed limb (tourniquet), sucking chest wound (tape a credit card or something similar across hole in chest leaving one of the four sides untaped to keep blood in, but allow air to escape and keep lung from collapsing), etc.
Minimal - broken finger, contusions, abrasions, 1st degree buns, etc.
Expectant - GSW to head, heart, spleen, severing of carotid artery (can't use a tourniquet here - blood loss will kill brain), 3rd degree burns to over 75% of body, etc. This was a harsh decision, sometimes. "Can the patient be saved?" "Is it worth the supplies to attempt to save?" "Have I made the right decision for the greater good?" "I've gone off on a self-indulgent tangent - let me get back to the question."
This game simulates that by giving the medic a chance to do the above. When the medic makes the roll, assume the wound was considered MINIMAL. No other medic is able to do any greater good, as the wound has been assessed and dealt with. If the roll is failed, assume the wound was assessed to be one of the other three categories. Again, no other medic would be abe to help, as they would tend to agree with the assessment. Having the medic in the squad allows the assessment to be made. Without a medic, the soldier is left to their own devices. Wounds cannot be assessed and are assumed grave enough to removed the soldier from the fight.
The Ticker is a one-use item that can only be used to return a model's last wound. Once used, it cannot restore another wound, even if the model regenerates wounds or is "healed" afterwards. Regeneration is a special ability of the model, itself, and is separate from the medic ability. Powers are just that - Special Abilities that confer unnatural abilities. In game terms, they are above and beyond the powers of ordinal mortals.
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-Applaud-
couldn't have said better myself. If the applaud/smit button was workin for me I'd give ya props.
-PFC joe
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I applauded him for you AfD.
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This game simulates that by giving the medic a chance to do the above. When the medic makes the roll, assume the wound was considered MINIMAL. No other medic is able to do any greater good, as the wound has been assessed and dealt with. If the roll is failed, assume the wound was assessed to be one of the other three categories. Again, no other medic would be abe to help, as they would tend to agree with the assessment. Having the medic in the squad allows the assessment to be made. Without a medic, the soldier is left to their own devices. Wounds cannot be assessed and are assumed grave enough to removed the soldier from the fight.
If we are 'really' simulating the real life then chances are there might be a situation where the 1st medic have no clue in regarding to how to treat this wound (in game term, the medic failed the roll). That doesn't mean another medic can not take a look at and maybe he or she knows how to deal with this would (in game term, the medic made the roll).
Plus, in real life, you always want to get a second opinion. :-)
If I remember correctly, the 2nd edition medic rule had a clause where you can not heal more than the number of wounds a model has. I think that mimics what dmcgee1 said.
Looking from gaming perspective, I would like to see the medic's ability to expand a bit by allowing multiple medics treating a wounded model but no more than 1 wound can be healed by medics SA.
Any thoughts?
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Looking from gaming perspective, I would like to see the medic's ability to expand a bit by allowing multiple medics treating a wounded model but no more than 1 wound can be healed by medics SA.
Any thoughts?
In doing that you're creating additional book keeping, since you would have to keep track of whose been 'Mediced' you would really have to make some sort of 'Healed' marker you could place by the unit, and while I don't know about you I do know that between terrain, units and the markers we already have, things often get very busy and sometimes counters get misplaced. There is nothing worse than finding out that the Behemoth should have been dead last turn but its player lost track of a wound counter.
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I applauded him for you AfD.
Thanks, bud ;)
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Looking from gaming perspective, I would like to see the medic's ability to expand a bit by allowing multiple medics treating a wounded model but no more than 1 wound can be healed by medics SA.
Any thoughts?
In doing that you're creating additional book keeping, since you would have to keep track of whose been 'Mediced' you would really have to make some sort of 'Healed' marker you could place by the unit, and while I don't know about you I do know that between terrain, units and the markers we already have, things often get very busy and sometimes counters get misplaced. There is nothing worse than finding out that the Behemoth should have been dead last turn but its player lost track of a wound counter.
Not to mention in "real life" terms...battlefield medicine is preety frightening - dodging bullets, chaos, and a casualty screaming like he's been shot...oh, yeah, HE HAS BEEN! ;)
Two medics are NOT going to concentrate on the same wounded squaddie. If you have two medics close together, the enemy has a great grenade target. Take out the medics, NO ONE gets healed!
In "real life" I put as much faith in the Geneva Convention Rules of Warfare as the enemy does - none. I "lose" my medic insignia (big red cross on a stark white background)the moment I get off the plane/chopper/boat and never requisition another - it makes too good a target for the sniper. I never know where the other medics are as we know not to clump together (one area-effect weapon can be very demoralizing when it's gets three or four people - two of 'em being medics).
The reason I used "real life" was as an example of what the game is attempting to simulate while keeping the game fast and, above all, fun.
The reason complications usually arise is through people trying to bring more to the game than should be there. IMHO, the medic ability works great as is - no need to tinker.
I'll never forget the look on Archer's (John Tinney) face when he took out my Vulkan Sergeant, only to see him revived by a Dragoon medic. He looked as if someone had told him Santa, the Easter bunny and the Great Pumpkin were never going to visit him, again. It was beautiful - ask him. ;)
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Medics would be too good, if they were "resurrecting" models with ease, like in the good old times of 2nd edition. They're also so expensive (and competing with other specialists for the slots), that any "2 medics working on 1 guy" situation is roughly as probable as in Real Life TM (zip, zero and no way...) - so any such ruling is not really needed, IMO. I'd like to see some kind of morale boost to the troops, that know that, if something happens to them, there's a guy which can help them. Inspiration or something similar...
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Having two Technomancers keeping a Behemoth alive could be a player's chosen strategy.
If the Behemoth has lost, say, 5 wounds, I can see no reason why the Technomancers can't both try to heal (yes, heal, as opposed to just keeping the monster able to fight) the Behemoth (one attempt per turn) each and every turn until the model is fully healed or receives more wounds that can be healed.
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I have no problem as it works for 1 wound models.
For multi-wound models I think it is possible to restore more then 1 wounds if more "Medic" is working on the patient. 1 medic can restore 1 wound per round. Regeneration is indeed a different thing and should be treated separately.
If the opponent is lucky with the dice his medics will be your least worry. ;)
We were thinking about some special cases where the medic would be no use. For example if a 1 wound trooper is hit by a heavy weapon that causes more than 1 wound (damage modifier x2 or more) and fails more than 1 saving throws - it could be considered as overkilled - not much left to patch.
Could give a bit difference to the match without overcomplicating as it is resolved on the spot.
Greetings,
Catinator
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I have no problem as it works for 1 wound models.
For multi-wound models I think it is possible to restore more then 1 wounds if more "Medic" is working on the patient. 1 medic can restore 1 wound per round. Regeneration is indeed a different thing and should be treated separately.
If the opponent is lucky with the dice his medics will be your least worry. ;)
We were thinking about some special cases where the medic would be no use. For example if a 1 wound trooper is hit by a heavy weapon that causes more than 1 wound (damage modifier x2 or more) and fails more than 1 saving throws - it could be considered as overkilled - not much left to patch.
Could give a bit difference to the match without overcomplicating as it is resolved on the spot.
Greetings,
Catinator
Isn't that in the rules? Am I back in 1st Edition?
We play, that a medic cannot heal more wounds than the model originaly had.
If it takes more wounds in a game he is just to wracked to be healed.
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No, it cannot gain more wounds than it originally had. Never meant anything else.
I have to get back my rulebook and check the issues.
Greetings,
Catinator
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Beside, I do not use Medics in UWZ.
The chance to heal a model is to low and you give away a specialist slot.
In first edition yes, there the medics were pretty good.
Do you use medics in UWZ? How is your experiance?
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Do you use medics in UWZ? How is your experiance?
Medics as squad specialists ...
I don't use them anymore. They haven't shown themselves worthy of the specialist lot.
That's just my take on them: I rather spend my specialist lots on something that actually make a difference (in practice, not in theory).
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There are three factors that made me decide not to take medics in my Imperial regular squads, the foremost reason is that though the medic has a additional ability the other troops lack he is still limited in terms of the most important currency in UWZ: Actions. The medic has more to do, but the same number of actions to do it in. Second, the chances of successfully using the medic ability are typically lower than the chance to wound an enemy model, therefore his actions would typically be better spend shooting than assessing the wounds of his squadmates. At this point, since he doesn't have extra opportunity to heal, and his chances of healing are typically lower than his chance to inflict a wound, the medic ends up being an expensive trooper. Third factor is the analysis of my above comments in comparison to the other specialists available, compared to both the regular rocket launcher, or regular HMG, the medic is a poorer choice.
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There are three factors that made me decide not to take medics in my Imperial regular squads, the foremost reason is that though the medic has a additional ability the other troops lack he is still limited in terms of the most important currency in UWZ: Actions. The medic has more to do, but the same number of actions to do it in. Second, the chances of successfully using the medic ability are typically lower than the chance to wound an enemy model, therefore his actions would typically be better spend shooting than assessing the wounds of his squadmates. At this point, since he doesn't have extra opportunity to heal, and his chances of healing are typically lower than his chance to inflict a wound, the medic ends up being an expensive trooper. Third factor is the analysis of my above comments in comparison to the other specialists available, compared to both the regular rocket launcher, or regular HMG, the medic is a poorer choice.
Spot on!
Not to mention the 1 medic per wound restriction! Which I have been pushing healing 1 wound per turn regardless the number of medics... I'm hoping by lifting that restriction, it would make medics more enticing.
As of now, I prefer the RL dude then the medics! When will the imperial regular RL be available? I really hate to proxy it... :-)
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Beside, I do not use Medics in UWZ.
The chance to heal a model is to low and you give away a specialist slot.
In first edition yes, there the medics were pretty good.
Do you use medics in UWZ? How is your experiance?
I do, and have had a good measure of success with them. I refer you back to the post, earlier, where Archer felt immense joy at taking out my Vulkan Sergeant, only to need a prescription for lithium for his mood swing when my medic brought him back.
Being able to save one model per game makes the SA worth it, in my opinion. That one model will, in all liklihood, get off another shot or two more than if it had been left for dead. One shot makes the AC spent to heal moot. Getting two or more shots from a model that is no longer dead is paying for the points for the SA, and adding AC's to the unit as a whole! If your medic is level 6, you've effectively given 30% of the models in your squad an extra wound for each medic present! Further, theey can be brought back more than once - just not in the same turn.
Having two Technomancers keeping a Behemoth alive could be a player's chosen strategy.
If the Behemoth has lost, say, 5 wounds, I can see no reason why the Technomancers can't both try to heal (yes, heal, as opposed to just keeping the monster able to fight) the Behemoth (one attempt per turn) each and every turn until the model is fully healed or receives more wounds that can be healed.
Technomancy is not Medic...different rules, anyway.
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Technomancy is not Medic...different rules, anyway.
With Technomancy you can heal certain DL models like you can with Necromancy.
Necromancy operates similar to Medic SA. This was discussed in an old forum thread.
I may have missed something ... if Technomancy's part of healing models is somehow different from how Medic SA operates, it has eluded me. Maybe you could spell out the differences (concerning the actual process of "healing").
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I could point out the differences, but, they caan also be easily compared by reading them in the book. I am not going to re-print them here.
Suffice to say that if my explanation s not good enough for you, I highly recommend kicking this to Thom or the FAQ team. It's not that I am tired of explaining the situation - I just don't know if I can do it to the satisfaction that is warranted by you. I have not the authority of Thom nor the FAQ team. :)
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...reading them in the book. I am not going to re-print them here.
Hmm... you're right. I was remembering an earlier discussion in which Technomancy's repairing power was really just an extension to Necromancy's power and because in Necromancy SA it directly states "See the Medic SA for details.", I assumed the same rules would affect Technomancy. But there are no limitations expressed in Technomancy SA regarding how many times it can used per turn etc., so most of the discussion regarding Medic SA would not affect Technomancy per se.
Thanks dmcgee1, you made me take a closer look (and disregard a clouded memory) even without making a direct answer. :)
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I've had pretty good luck with my Medic, they're not too bad. Besides, they can fight too.
Also, isn't it against Cartel regulations to kill the medic? ;)