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Talaminiatures => Chronopia FAQ => Topic started by: T Prime on September 23, 2005, 03:09:36 PM

Title: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: T Prime on September 23, 2005, 03:09:36 PM
From the Pages of Cerulean Mists
Chapter- Rule Revisions

Flying Models

      Under the MV stat, a flying model will have its flight ability listed following a /, such as in the example below.
Example:    MV- 3/6:12
   The above example is read as follows.  The first number, in this case the 3 designates its earthbound movement.  The number 6 indicates its flying speed when airborne.  The number after the colon indicates the upper altitude that flyer may ascend to.
In addition to the standard rules, models with Flying also have the following rules:

Flying Unit Terminology

The following terms are used when describing actions and their effects in respect to Models with Flying.

•   Airborne: used to describe a model with flying that is currently in the air above the battlefield.
•   Earthbound: Used to describe a model with flying that is currently on the ground.
•   Take-Off: Used to describe a move action by a model with Flying to become Airborne.
•   Landing: Used to describe a move action by a model with Flying to become Earthbbound.
•   Altitude: Designates a model's current height above the ground while Airborne.
•   Ascend: Used to describe a move action by a model with Flying during which it increases its Altitude.
•   Descend: Used to describe a move action by a model with Flying in during which it decreases its Altitude.

ALTITUDE

Models that have the flying ability have an upper limit to how high they may ascend above the battlefield.  Some models can soar aloft at dizzying heights while others are only capable of skimming the surface.  An airborne model always travels with a marker next to it to represent its altitude.  An airborne model at 6" would therefore have the accompanying marker showing a 6. 

A Note on Altitude Markers.  We recommend using a spare d20 to show this altitude.

An airborne model may change Altitude by Ascending / Descending during a normal move action at no additional movement cost.  The MV of the flying model as explained below determines the rate of ascent or descent.

DEPLOYMENT

Models with flying may be deployed upon the battlefield in either Earthbound or Airborne status. The choice is up to the controlling player as per normal Deployment rules.  Should a player opt for Airborne deployment, they must make sure to select their starting altitude and place the appropriate marker next to the model.

While Airborne, a Model may benefit from performing Aim actions and may expend actions to attempt Spot Checks (unless otherwise noted of course).

The only way that a Flying Model may engage, or be engaged, in Close Combat is if it is either Earthbound, struck by another flying model or confronted with a model whose SZ or elevation places it on the same altitude level as the flyer.  Measuring the height the model is at and comparing it to the altitude of the flyer determine the elevation of a model.  If they height matches the altitude and the model can move into CC it may attack. 

Example:  An Ogre Deathseeker is on the third level of a shattered tower which has an Altitude of 12 (or is 12” up).  His troops are below him being assaulted by a Flying Dragonbane that is passing near him.  Should the Flying Dragonbane pass within 1” of the tower the Ogre may come off Wait (Countercharge) to strike at it physically. If that Ogre had a pole arm with an additional one inch reach, it could attack if the Dragonbane came within 2”. 

Alternately, ground based models may be able to swat at a careless flyer that has misjudged its reach.  Models may attempt to strike (CC) a flyer that is no more than 1/2 their SZ value above them.  Basically, a SZ 5 model may strike at a flying model who's Altitude is 7 (SZ 5 +2 (2.5 rounded down) = 7) or less with a close combat action.  Normal issues of LOS, terrain, etc applies.
   
LOS

While Earthbound, models with flying follow the same rules for LOS as all other models of its type. LOS must not be blocked by terrain obstructions or other flyers.

Flying Models and Command Distance

Some Flying Models are also grouped together into warbands, with a Warband Leader that acts in the same way as a ground based Warband Leader.

Airborne warbands must adhere to the same rules for Command Distance with one addition. Command Distance for flying warbands is 3 altitudes vertically and normal Command Distance horizontally.

MOVEMENT

Models that are Earthbound use the appropriate Movement rules for their type. While Airborne, there are some important rules regarding Movement that an airborne model must adhere to:

•   If an airborne Model comes into involuntary contact of a Terrain piece it crashes. This can happen should it be moved via spell or weather condition.
•   Damage is determined by adding the SZ of the model that crashed with the distance it moved when it crashed.
•   Assuming it is not killed, it should then make an LD test to determine f it falls to the ground. If it fails this LD test follow the rules for falling located on page 59 of the Core Rulebook.

If it succeeds no further action needs be taken.
•   When Airborne, a Model may ignore all Terrain penalties and may fly over all Terrain that are lower is lower in height than the Airborne Model’s current Altitude.
•   An Airborne model may accelerate (using the rules for running as found on page 58 of the Core Rulebook)

ASCENDING & DESCENDING

When a Flying Model wishes to change Altitude it may do so freely within a MV action.  The maximum amount of change is determined by taking 1/2 of the models airborne MV value. A model may never Ascend and Descend in the same move action.

Example: A Drone has an airborne MV of 6.  This means that each MV action a Drone spends while airborne; it may ascend or descend up to 3 Altitudes.


RANGED COMBAT

Flying targets are very difficult to hit with ranged fire. Flight speed, angle of trajectory and wind shear all play a part.

Range and Airborne Models

Whenever a model needs to target an airborne model, just measure the distance from the target to the firing model and add the number on the Altitude marker.  Likewise, an airborne model uses this formula to measure the range for its attacks against Earthbound models.

<<<<<diagram>>>>>>

An Airborne model attempting to shoot at another Airborne model can calculate the range to its target by first measuring the distance between models and adding the differences in their altitude.

<<<<<diagram>>>>>>

MORALE

Airborne models obey all rules for Morale as would Earthbound warbands.

ALTITUDE & TERRAIN

   Players will need to determine what Altitude unusually tall pieces of terrain fall into.  For example, the top of a hill may be 7” off the table and would hence be Altitude 7.  If your terrain includes a mountain or tower with many levels, each level may fall into a different Altitude.  To determine height, calculate it by measuring the physical height in inches of the terrain piece, using that as the altitude.

Revised Flying Movements

   As we have removed height bands and introduced new concepts to making flying models more flexible to use, we have corrected the MV stats of models with flying found in the Chronopia core rule book. The following list amends the MV stats of models with Flying found in the Chronopia core rule book.

•   Demon Wings- P. 164         MV-1/6:12
•   Soul Flayer- P. 170         MV-3/5:14
•   Darkwings- P. 172         MV-0/6:06
•   Demon of Twilight- P. 176      MV-2/5:08
•   Greater Demon of Twilight-P. 177   MV-2/6:12
•   Giant Skeleton- P. 180      MV-1/3:03
•   Vulture Totem- P. 199      MV-3/6:14
•   Flying Dragonbane- P. 234      MV-2/7:18
•   Daughter of the Phoenix- P. 252   MV-3/12:08
•   Fire Elemental- P. 253      MV-2/4:04
•   Warhawks- P. 296         MV-1/5:15
•   Ophidian- P. 324         MV-2/5:14
•   Drones- P. 344         MV-1/6:08
•   Gourd Spirit- P. 351         MV-3/4:03

CHARGING & POWER DIVES

When a model moves into close combat with another model it must follow all the normal rules for charging with the following exceptions:
1)   An airborne model attacking another airborne model may do so as per the normal charging rules.  See page 66 of the Chronopia Core Rulebook.

2)   An airborne model charging an Earthbound model gains an additional bonus of +2 DAM on top of the standard damage modifier. This reflects the extra force from the attacker's momentum. This bonus does not apply if the two models are already engaged in close combat..

SWOOPING ATTACKS

Some models prefer the option of making less committed attacks and instead of engaging an enemy in a drawn-out conflict. They will instead prefer to attack an opponent(s) in passing. We refer to this as a swooping attack, or a “fly by”.

•   The player declares a swooping attack and moves the attacking model. At the point the attacker touches the first model it makes a CC attack. This CC attack is made at a penalty of -4 on top of any other modifiers. Whether the model successfully hits or not, it continues its move. Normal charge bonuses do not apply for swooping attacks.
•   The model(s) attacked may use a Wait action to Dive for Cover or Brace (swooping down on a spear can get you skewered).
•   The damage from a swooping attack is reduced by 2 as well. A model that makes a swooping attack must move at least 1 inch before contact with its intended target.
 All models with flying may use swooping attacks. These types of attacks do not apply to riders however who must hold on.[/color]
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Firstborn on September 23, 2005, 06:06:18 PM
Hello Thom,

Thanks for posting this, it is very helpfull.

There are two things that I need to have clarified:


Swoop Attacks:
"The model(s) attacked may use a Wait action to Dive for Cover or Brace (swooping down on a spear can get you skewered)."

Can a model on wait countercharge? It would make sense that if a unit(s) is on wait, it would be able to assault the flyer as it passes by with a swoop attack. If it can not, the flyer could just make continuous swoop attacks without fear of retaliation. Could you clarify this?



Soul Flayer Balefire Template Attack:

With these new rules, how will the Soul Flayer Balefire Template Attack work? Do you simply substract the models altitude as inches off the template? Where do you have to measure the template from? I could see some abuse if players simply measure the template from the base of the Soulflayer and point it straight down.

The real un-balance with this would be if the Soul Flayer could fly over the board, using Balefire on your non-polearm close combat troops, and wipe them all out without fear of retaliation.

Could you please clarify this?


Thanks!
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: T Prime on September 23, 2005, 09:14:33 PM
Quote
Swoop Attacks:

"The model(s) attacked may use a Wait action to Dive for Cover or Brace (swooping down on a spear can get you skewered)."

Can a model on wait countercharge? It would make sense that if a unit(s) is on wait, it would be able to assault the flyer as it passes by with a swoop attack. If it can not, the flyer could just make continuous swoop attacks without fear of retaliation. Could you clarify this?

Swoop attacks are less effective (no charge bonuses, to hit penalties, and damage reductions) than any normal arial attack. They are harrassing attacks at best. Flyers with multiple attacks only get to use their main one. Swoops are fast and erratic and countercharging is not able to be used against it by the model being attacked. Models that are within the distance to intercept may attempt to come off Wait and countercharge as usual. It is a tactic, you must choose what flyer exploits it best. Hope that helped.

You're other question I answered in the thread you put it. You may wish to confine questions about these revisions to this thread however. Collective you of course. :)

Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: deurbroucq on September 24, 2005, 04:16:37 AM
Hello Thom!

Please let me know if I understand the new rules:

1)  Flying is now indicated on the board in inches.  The inches indicate the bottom of the model.

2)  In order to engage a flyer, the size of the model must match the flying height of the flyer.  So a size 2 model may charge/countercharge any flyer at 2", or 3" if they have a reach weapon.

3) If 1 plus 1/2 the size of the model match the flying height of the flyer (round down), then the model may swat at the flyer as a CC, but they are not engaged.  So a size 2 model may swat at a flyer at 3", 4" if they have a reach weapon.  However, no charge bonus since it's not an engagement, just a swat.  And the flyer can still move around at that height without engagement restrictions.  In my mind, I'm visualizing someone jumping up and swinging their sword.

4)  To measure bale fire during flight, subtract the flying height of the Soul Flayer from the template.  The rest of the template is used to measure the affected area.

Thanks!
deurbroucq  ;D
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: joshuaslater on September 24, 2005, 04:50:45 AM
Nice to see the mists startin' to congeal. 
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Firstborn on September 24, 2005, 07:35:52 AM
Just for everyone's info, this is Thom's detailed Balefire explanation. Thanks Thom! This is awesome and exactly what we needed!!

Quote
With these new rules, how will the Soul Flayer Balefire Template Attack work? Do you simply substract the models altitude as inches off the template? Where do you have to measure the template from? I could see some abuse if players simply measure the template from the base of the Soulflayer and point it straight down.

The balefire attack template (or any template weapon for that matter) does not generally work as effectively against ground-based targets as it does when they too are ground-based. Let's look at how.

Assume a SF is flying six inches above the table. If she were to attack at an opponent directly below her the template would hit however the area of affect is the width of the templates far end only. The cone aspect doesn't come into play.

If the targets were forward of the SF, you would measure the distance to the targets and add the altitude (in this case 6"). Let's assume the template is 7" long. If the opponents are four inches in front of the SF she could not breathe on them. (4" + 6"=10 inches actual).

Using this method the SF can only affect soldiers on the ground if they are up to 1" forward of her position. As the template is narrow chances are only one soldier will be affected.

Let's further this example. If she were only 3" in the air, she could hit models up to 4" away. How many models are affected? Measure the template.

If a warband is one inch in front of a flying SF at altitude 3, that would mean the models under the template would be under the final three inches of the template (7" template- 4" distance (3"altitude+1" lateral) leaves 3" of template. It's fairly simple and quite intuitive. In the end, a template attack works best when used against a target(s) in the same plane, be it ground-based or airborne. 

As for where the measuring occurs, it is determined by the edge of the models base.



Quote
The real un-balance with this would be if the Soul Flayer could fly over the board, using Balefire on your non-polearm close combat troops, and wipe them all out without fear of retaliation.

If you do the math, the affectiveness of a balefire fly-by is not very affective at all as to get the maximum affect from the template it would need to be low enough to be counter attacked.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Firstborn on September 24, 2005, 07:40:53 AM
Thom,

One more point of clarification on the Swoop Attack:

"Models that are within the distance to intercept may attempt to come off Wait and o*****ercharge as usual."

If the model being attacked is on wait, it could   intercept and countercharge  as normal, correct? It just can't make a normal counter charge attack and engage in close combat, as the flyer has already passed by. This would make sense as the model is standing ready, and is going to make one desperate swing as the flyer erraticaly swoops by.
Is this the correct way to interpret the rule?

Thanks!
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: joshuaslater on September 24, 2005, 07:41:35 AM
Streamlinin', simplifyin' and clarifyin'.  
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Stygian Warrior on September 25, 2005, 05:32:34 AM
This is why EE is so much better than some other companies they don;t leave in the wind when you need rule clarifications. To the day Chronopia rules the battle boards. ;D
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Steel Rabbit on September 25, 2005, 10:41:46 AM
Quote
o*****ercharge

Sorry?
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Southpaw on September 25, 2005, 01:54:14 PM
Mmm...me like-ey very much....

Love the new flyer rules....
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: joshuaslater on September 26, 2005, 06:23:21 AM
o***** --proofreading, m'boy, proofreading.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Steel Rabbit on September 26, 2005, 09:45:36 AM
I'm sorry, I may be daft, but I still don't get it. Does it have to do with something we're not meant to see until the book comes out?
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Coki on September 26, 2005, 11:04:12 AM

•   Fire Elemental- P. 253      MV-2/4:04


Right? Not MW-3/4:04 ?

Coki
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: joshuaslater on September 26, 2005, 11:08:51 AM
@ Steel Rabbit-- you're by no means daft.  My money is on it being a BAD typographical error, the kind that should not appear in the final mix.  Of course, Thom is wily, but in this case I think it was just a glitch.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Steel Rabbit on September 26, 2005, 05:32:19 PM
Firstborn included it in a post and acted as though he knew what it meant, no one else said anything, so I felt like the only guy in a room that doesn't get the joke.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: joshuaslater on September 27, 2005, 05:10:38 AM
Sadly, I'm often that guy who doesn't get the joke! ::)
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Steel Rabbit on September 27, 2005, 09:35:09 AM
Can someone hold my hand through the "shooting a template with a flyer" rules? When firing from another hight band you dubtract the heightband from the template, right? So in that case which end gets taken off? The broad end, or the pointy end?
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: joshuaslater on September 27, 2005, 09:47:03 AM
My guess is that you put the pointy end on the Soul Flayers base, and deduct from the broad end.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: T Prime on September 27, 2005, 05:38:44 PM
Quote
Hello Thom!

Please let me know if I understand the new rules:

1)  Flying is now indicated on the board in inches.  The inches indicate the bottom of the model.

Flying is represented in inches. That is true. The bottom of the model is not an issue.

Quote
2)  In order to engage a flyer, the size of the model must match the flying height of the flyer.  So a size 2 model may charge/countercharge any flyer at 2", or 3" if they have a reach weapon.

True.  

Quote
3) If 1 plus 1/2 the size of the model match the flying height of the flyer (round down), then the model may swat at the flyer as a CC, but they are not engaged.  So a size 2 model may swat at a flyer at 3", 4" if they have a reach weapon.  However, no charge bonus since it's not an engagement, just a swat.  And the flyer can still move around at that height without engagement restrictions.  In my mind, I'm visualizing someone jumping up and swinging their sword.

This is accurate.

Quote
4)  To measure bale fire during flight, subtract the flying height of the Soul Flayer from the template.  The rest of the template is used to measure the affected area.

Also correct.

Quote
Thanks!
deurbroucq 


You're welcome.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: T Prime on September 27, 2005, 05:42:42 PM
Quote
Thom,

One more point of clarification on the Swoop Attack:

"Models that are within the distance to intercept may attempt to come off Wait and countercharge as usual."

If the model being attacked is on wait, it could intercept and countercharge 
as normal, correct? It just can't make a normal counter charge attack and engage in close combat, as the flyer has already passed by. This would make sense as the model is standing ready, and is going to make one desperate swing as the flyer erraticaly swoops by.
Is this the correct way to interpret the rule?

No, not quite. The sentence you quoted refers to a model that is not the subject of the swoop by within its passing. Understand?
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: T Prime on September 27, 2005, 05:46:30 PM

•   Fire Elemental- P. 253      MV-2/4:04


Right? Not MW-3/4:04 ?

Coki

It is correct, 2 not 3.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: T Prime on September 27, 2005, 05:49:38 PM
Quote
@ Steel Rabbit-- you're by no means daft.  My money is on it being a BAD typographical error, the kind that should not appear in the final mix.  Of course, Thom is wily, but in this case I think it was just a glitch.


Wireless keyboard goes wonky when you sit too far away from the desk...sorry.
 
 
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: T Prime on September 27, 2005, 05:53:10 PM
Quote
Can someone hold my hand through the "shooting a template with a flyer" rules? When firing from another hight band you dubtract the heightband from the template, right? So in that case which end gets taken off? The broad end, or the pointy end?

Assume the pointy end is coming from the monster. The altitude starts from the pointy end and goes towards the wide end. Got it?
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Firstborn on September 27, 2005, 09:03:11 PM
Quote
Thom,

One more point of clarification on the Swoop Attack:

"Models that are within the distance to intercept may attempt to come off Wait and countercharge as usual."

If the model being attacked is on wait, it could intercept and countercharge 
as normal, correct? It just can't make a normal counter charge attack and engage in close combat, as the flyer has already passed by. This would make sense as the model is standing ready, and is going to make one desperate swing as the flyer erraticaly swoops by.
Is this the correct way to interpret the rule?

No, not quite. The sentence you quoted refers to a model that is not the subject of the swoop by within its passing. Understand?


Thom,

Are you saying the model that is being attacked by the swoop attack is defenseless?

If this is true, it seems horribly unbalanced. The flying model could just continously make swoop attacks without fear of any type of retaliation from the model being attacked.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Steel Rabbit on September 27, 2005, 11:35:38 PM
Assume the pointy end is coming from the monster. The altitude starts from the pointy end and goes towards the wide end. Got it?

Oh! So I take the template and subtract the height band from the pointy end first and the parts I'm left with are what I can shoot with (pointing the broad end at the enemy, of course)? You should make some weeling and dealing with the folks at GF9 for some wicked templates!
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Nikodemus on September 28, 2005, 12:43:08 AM
If I am the target of a swoop attack and I am on wait, then I can not countercharge or stand fast, what else could I do with my wait action?

-shoot if I have a bow or crossbow with the malus for reaction shooting

-throw my thrown weapon with the malus for reaction shooting

-brace if I have the ability

-dive for cover????

I am pretty sure the first three would be legal, but is dive for cover an option like avoiding trample?

Thom,

Are you saying the model that is being attacked by the swoop attack is defenseless?

If this is true, it seems horribly unbalanced. The flying model could just continously make swoop attacks without fear of any type of retaliation from the model being attacked.


I do not think so, if you have an individual out htere all alone by itself with no support, you are going to get punished by the flyers and their attack will not hit that often..

In addition "dive for cover" could be posssible, see above...

Marc
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: dr jack t ripper on September 28, 2005, 01:43:14 AM
I do have a concept that I do not know has been addressed or not.

Blood totems leap attacking from cliffs.

Lets say we have a blood totem (or any other model) siting on top of a clif/builing/whatever and a flying creature comes buy attacks something and is finished with its' activation. I now want to activate my "little" blood totem and have it leap onto the flying creature and attack it.

Is this possible?

Does it have to be the same hieight as the target?

Can the target be lower then it?

How far could it leap to make the attack?

How far could it reach to make the attack?

Could it be in a lower band but its reach extends to a higher band and thus can reach it?

If it bear hugged it, could it then throw it into the cliff /ground/another flying unit?

Does it have to spend 1 action falling?

If it kills it, can it use it as a cushion to absorb some of the damage when it falls?

In general what would be the mechanics?

Thank you,

dr jack t ripper

Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Firstborn on September 28, 2005, 06:35:55 AM
If I am the target of a swoop attack and I am on wait, then I can not countercharge or stand fast, what else could I do with my wait action?

-shoot if I have a bow or crossbow with the malus for reaction shooting

-throw my thrown weapon with the malus for reaction shooting

-brace if I have the ability

-dive for cover????

I am pretty sure the first three would be legal, but is dive for cover an option like avoiding trample?

Thom,

Are you saying the model that is being attacked by the swoop attack is defenseless?

If this is true, it seems horribly unbalanced. The flying model could just continously make swoop attacks without fear of any type of retaliation from the model being attacked.


I do not think so, if you have an individual out htere all alone by itself with no support, you are going to get punished by the flyers and their attack will not hit that often..

In addition "dive for cover" could be posssible, see above...

Marc

Marc,

This is not going to work. If it is true, it turns Chronopia from a fine game into a not so fine game.

A lot of models dont have missile weapons or brace. If I am interpretting this correctly, my appoints demon wing or ophidian could just make continous swoop attacks against my Repulsar Knight without danger, for instance.

The model that is being subject to the swoop attacks should have some way to defend itself. There is no reason it can not swing at a flyer as the flyer swoops by.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Nikodemus on September 28, 2005, 06:53:38 AM
But is this not the same as trample?

You can not defend yourself against a trampling model, except diving for cover...

Unles you have other models on wait around which may charge the trampling model (from the side), same as with the swoop attack.

This is why I asked whether you may dive for cover as a reaction to a swoop attack.


To my embarassement, I just reread the rule, it says that you may dive for cover, doh! ::)

So imo it is the same thing as with trample, you may only avoid the attack or you have to have other models accompanying your RK...

Do you have to face the model you swoop attack like the trample attack or can you turn and attack like on a charge?

Otherwise a model with 3 AC could swoop attack with all three actions, this is could be too much...
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Firstborn on September 29, 2005, 09:13:11 PM
But is this not the same as trample?

You can not defend yourself against a trampling model, except diving for cover...

Unles you have other models on wait around which may charge the trampling model (from the side), same as with the swoop attack.

This is why I asked whether you may dive for cover as a reaction to a swoop attack.


To my embarassement, I just reread the rule, it says that you may dive for cover, doh! ::)

So imo it is the same thing as with trample, you may only avoid the attack or you have to have other models accompanying your RK...

Do you have to face the model you swoop attack like the trample attack or can you turn and attack like on a charge?

Otherwise a model with 3 AC could swoop attack with all three actions, this is could be too much...


Marc,

It IS NOT the same as tramble. A model that is trampling will be vulerable after the tramble. If the model being trampled over survives, it could charge into close combat.

If the new swoop rule allows the flyer to make continuous swoop attacked, the model being attacked would not be able to retaliate.

We still need an official explanation from Thom on this extremely technical rule.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: wes007 on November 17, 2005, 03:19:06 PM
The allowing of a template weapon by models that are flying without being reached by melee troops is very bad idea.
1. There is no hit roll needed for templates in affect. So if you have soulflayer and manage to off the the other sides missile troops and they happen to have no flying troops (IE FIRSTBORN) the game is over the soul flayer wins by default. I go on wait to dive for cover soulflayer just keeps breathing who wins? So much for strategy GEE wonder what the devout will field against non flying races now hard decision. Secondly as fast as flying models move it is very easy to pick off one missle troop warband or individual and then take off again.

2. IF SWOOPING it should amend to read if you fumble with swoop you take crashing damage and must spend an action to stand up.

3. SERIOUSLY think about templates and flying. Rule should read if they chose to breathe flame, vapors, ice what have you then they are close enough for models to take jab attacks at them from wait no charge bonus move into base to base then attack at an additional minus 2 for the hovering nearly out reach while breathing flame. This game isnt warzone (nearly everyone has rifles or guns) with range template weapons being totally different by allowing templates with impunity and invulnerablity from flying everyone should give up non flying races or play underground only.
4. Another rule possiblity you must roll to hit with airborne using rc (Flying models with templates) If you fumble u breathe on your own model. IF you miss the attack misses all models as it was badly timed.
5. If you going to adhere to template weapons attacking from air with immunity then elminate the 40 percent of  missile warband requirement, also limit flying models to one type or unit per side peroid. This game is like chess with dice by putting templates in the air you going back to he/she who buys the cheesiest army wins by default.


If you disagree try the following set up:
1 first born chronomancer with set back, accelerate, and second chance
1 first born repulsar knight
5 firstborn long bow men
5 swordsmen
5 mace men

Devout
8 risen archers any type
1 necromancer any spells up to 40 pts
1 Soulflayer
5 swordsmen
5 greatswordsmen

All you have to do is elminate the first born long bow men keep your Soulflayer alive and you won the game all the rest of the "average" firstborn army is gone! And gee since the soul flayer can dive and climb like it wasnt 4 to 8 tons in weight that wont be hard. Oh wait we get the spell that works half the time to see the other persons army list. TO BAD that with the army restrictions the way they are it wont matter!

Lets see soulflayer in Devout army on ground is hard enough but you have chance. Flying bale fire model with range advantage with experienced players its over cards not need just see who dies first the longbow men or the Soulflayer the rest the game is pointless.

Lets see with 5 wounds size 5 with armor 22 versus 5 long bowmen with longbows damage 7 medium range.

Oh thats right lets see what happens when you give the chronomancer wither at its point cost one time use with a 4 actions Soulfayer (seen that one before by inexperinced firstborn player) you pray for a 20!!!!

The odds slightly improve versus crossbowmen till you add in the average devout archers on their side!!!
It's a no brainer every devout outside army will field soulflayers if they want sure win. Elves with dragonbane and archers might have chance.

I challenge any of you to try it with simlar force list against the devout with a ranged flying template! It might take the devout 1 to 2 game sessions to figure out the way to use it but after that its a no brainer.  Might as well give dragonbane flying breath weapons now to.

While you are at it you need to change the Sons of Kronos only defense against something like that the spell Gust of Wind make it force flying units to the ground for one turn. Other wise their only chance is they took cursed sling stones.....


Overall swooping attacks are OK they can be dealt with.

Flamerthrowers from air with 40 percent missile troop restriction with some armies with no flyers way chessy. If you going to add that rule give every race air borne unit of some kind to deal with the new threat and/or new spells that can ground flyers ( NOT JUST MOVE THEM BUT GROUND THEM) for one full set of actions or for the remainder of the turn) that puts some element of strategy back into the game. Its proven fact in war when one side controls the air 100 percent they are 75 to 90 percent likely to win any open engangement just from air superiorty alone.

Lets see theres a Soulflayer terrozing the western  borders of the Firstborn killing all the knights from the air what would the ONE KING do send about 2,000 crossbowmen with their crossbows concealed beneath firstborn cloaks so they look like knights. OR send 3 chronomancers 2 with wither and all with second chance and accelerate, so they can get the hell out dodge when the demon hag goes berzerk!!!!
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: joshuaslater on November 18, 2005, 06:44:59 AM
Sounds like you really tested out this rule!  I haven't yet ( I'm almost done putting my Soul Flayer together), but just from reading your post I've been thinking about the template weapon and flyers. 

I agree with you that Chronopia is like chess with dice.  I'd like to see it stay this way, where no one unit/model unbalances things.  I will have to try your suggestion and see for myself, but I'm guessing that I'll agree with you about the Soul Flayer. 

Cheers.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: wes007 on November 18, 2005, 02:01:10 PM
Needs to be some kind balance to templates and flying is all I am saying. Chronomancers and other units are limited in the rules, but templates from air needs some kind of limitation. As it stand Soulflayers landing to breathe is fair. Letting them fly and breathe might add more realism to the game, but breaks the game balance badly.

The point is giving large flying models with heavy armor with fast moves a airborne template badly unhinges the game.  It's much like the first editions rules which allowed chronomancers to interrupt give orders then have their unit go. It was outlawed and rightfully so....

Try playtesting the devout force hiding behind risen archers with soulflayers staying hidden or high airborne till its time to move out and end the other sides missle troops. Once u playtest it with several armies you will see the problem then with it.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: Firstborn on November 21, 2005, 10:15:44 AM
Needs to be some kind balance to templates and flying is all I am saying. Chronomancers and other units are limited in the rules, but templates from air needs some kind of limitation. As it stand Soulflayers landing to breathe is fair. Letting them fly and breathe might add more realism to the game, but breaks the game balance badly.

The point is giving large flying models with heavy armor with fast moves a airborne template badly unhinges the game.  It's much like the first editions rules which allowed chronomancers to interrupt give orders then have their unit go. It was outlawed and rightfully so....

Try playtesting the devout force hiding behind risen archers with soulflayers staying hidden or high airborne till its time to move out and end the other sides missle troops. Once u playtest it with several armies you will see the problem then with it.

Wes007,

This is part of the reason I ALWAYS play with a turn limit.

My games normally last 6 turns. This really only becomes an issue if you are playing an unlimited turn game, which I never recommend doing.
Title: Re: REVISED FLYING RULES FROM CERULEAN MISTS
Post by: fuko on November 24, 2005, 05:50:45 AM
Wes007
But as I read this rule template is shorter if SF is in air -1 inch for each inch it is above ground (and this template is 4" long). According to rules you can also attack model in the air- models with size 2 can attack SF if it flys up to 3 inches, and those with polearms (Iron Guard, Repulsar Knight), have 1" more reach. So if SF is going to bale flame such models they can attack her. Second - take more shooting units - crossbowmen and bowmen + Repulsar Marksman (and R.Knight to improve those units RC) and simply shoot it down. If your enemy fields archers field also some Iron Guard in shield wall to protect your shoting units (they will be still able to shoot at SF while it flyes shooting over IG heads)