Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Talaminiatures => General Discussions => Topic started by: Daargrim on July 01, 2010, 11:27:02 AM
-
First off I would just like to say that I am not posting this to slam Prince August. As you will read I have generally been very happy with their communication and customer service. However I want to share my experience so others can better judge if they want to spend their money on Chronopia from Prince August.
I have made 3 orders from Prince August over the last 3 years or so. One order probably 3 years ago, another roughly 2 years ago, and my biggest order by far was just a couple months ago during their 30% off sale.
I first experienced issues with my second order. Included in that order were several blisters of Wolf Legion warriors, and also a Goblin Myrmidon boxed set. I was disappointed to see that many of those pieces had what I can only describe as grey "crud" covering portions of the model. I did some research online and the only thing I could find was the condition referred to as "lead rot". I had not heard of that condition at that point. Also, my figures didn't fit the description 100%. Plus I didn't think these figures were made of lead anyway, so I was't sure if they could even have "lead rot". Below are some pictures:
(http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu309/harv0033/P1050257-1.jpg)
(http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu309/harv0033/P1050258-1.jpg)
I contacted Prince August and had an e-mail conversation with Michael O'Brien. He agreed to simply send replacements without me having to even sent the affected models back. I should note that I am in the US so clearly the shipping was not cheap for them to send replacements. If I remember correctly, the new Myrmidon was also affected, but to a much lesser degree. The new Wolf warriors were of acceptable quality. At that point I was happy with the service, and I figured that between the two boxed sets I probably had one usable myrmidon, so I considered this order satisfactory.
Fast forward to this past spring. With the 30% off sale, two friends and I decided to put in a huge order to basically round out our collections. This order was over $500 and the shipping alone was near $100. But it was a lot of minis at 30% off so we were pretty excited. When the order arrived, it was a mess. Nearly all the boxed sets had this issue that I described above, along with probably 10 of the blister packs. Cost-wise, this was about half of our order. While some of these blisters/boxes had severe issues, some of these boxes and models were only affected slightly. But, I was worried that this would be a condition that spread. I was very bummed out at this point.
What ensured was another long, but very professional, e-mail conversation with Prince August (again, it was Michael O'Brien). Ultimately it was decided that I would return the items for a potential exchange or refund. Once they got back to PA, Michael suggested a refund. In his words:
most have no real corrosion that could not be removed with a few scrapes of a scalpel blade. Due to the nature of the age of our Warzone and Chronopia miniatures (some age and wear is expected) I have decided to refund you the value of the items you returned as I believe you are not happy with the quality of our Target Games stock overall and any we send you as replacements may fall short of those expectations
and further in the conversation:
I am sorry that you found the blemishes on the surface to be enough to return the items, it seems that most of these blemishes could have been salvaged with a small amount of cleaning or scraping and any parts unsalvageable (more than surface covering) could have been removed from the boxes and sent back separately for replacement, but I understand that you were worried about their shelf-life in your collection and wanted flawless miniatures.
Now I appreciated the refund (which included return shipping, plus the initial cost to ship the items in the first place!), but I think he was a little optimistic that a fix would be easy. Even if it was easy, filing down all those figures would take forever. My response:
As far as removing the corrosion/rot/excess (or whatever it was), I have a couple of comments. First of all, some of the blister/boxes/figures were terribly coated. Cleaning them off with file or blade would have taken forever for that many figures (hundreds). For example, I recall the Sons of Kronos chariot was particularly bad, to the point of being discolored. Secondly, any area with fine detail would have been ruined by the process. There were many figures that fell into that category. I do know there were some figures that only had slight issues...but to me, any issue was a problem as this was not your normal "flashing" that is typically seen.
Bottom line, in the end, PA did refund me what I thought was a fair amount. (This even included an amount that we disagreed on regarding the shipping price, and we negotiated to a middle ground that I thought was very fair). All through the experience they were helpful and quick to respond. (I should also mention that in the original shipment one blister was out of stock, and they had issued me a credit. I immediately emailed them an alternate blister that I would take in its place and they shipped it to me no questions, not charging me shipping).
But ultimately I think there is an issue with at least some of their chronopia stock. While it certainly isn't "most" of their stock, it must be a significant percentage. My issue wasn't isolated to just a few particular model numbers, it was across many different blisters and boxed sets, over about a 2 year timeframe..although I would have to say that it appears to impact boxed sets more than blister packs. It's entirely possible that, prior to acquisition, the stock may have been stored in less-than-idea conditions and that the issue was not caused by anything that PA did directly.
In closing, I don't think I will order from them again. I just don't trust that I will get acceptable quality figures.
Interestingly, one of the final tings Michael mentioned in our email exchanges:
There is nothing I can do about the problems we have with Chronopia, but I have asked [my boss] to consider discontinuing the range later this Summer completely and concentrate on Warzone when we build a new website, as Warzone miniatures seems mysteriously free of most of these metal problems.
I hope this info is helpful for those of you looking to add more Chronopia miniatures to your collection.
-
I've been lucky with PA, but it's mostly been Warzone.
Helpful post. Thanks.
-
I recently made two large Chronopia orders, about $400 dollars worth in total. Definitely more than 100 miniatures. I got a mixture of many things, mostly Firstborn, Devout, and Sons of Kronos, with a smattering of Stygian and Elf items. Of those I only had two blisters of Cursed that looked like they could have a slight "lead rot" problem, and not all 8 of them had the problem. I'm not 100% certain it is lead rot, it may be from the casting process and the molds/metal not being hot enough as it is affecting them all in the same place on the miniatures. In any case I was able to file it off without problems. This was most evident on their tabbard with the devout symbol. I suspect that it may wind up getting filed off as the detail is fairly delicate and fine as it is. This was mostly blisters, but I did order a few boxed sets as well. I haven't opened the Sons of Kronos Chariot though, so I'm going to do that tonight. The other boxed sets I orderd didn't have any problems.
True lead rot will look like a grayish white rust that looks flakey and bubbly with a rough surface. It will usually expand and be larger than the original area it has corroded. It is not brown colored like a lot of the models I have are, the brown is caused by the metal being too hot when its cast. Lead rot is caused by acid in the air reacting with the lead/metal and causing corrosion. It happens when the lead item is stored in enclosed areas without good ventilation, i.e. Target games miniature boxes sealed in plastic. Once it starts it is self sustaining as the corrosion process gives off acid which causes more corrosion. This is a big problem with a lot of old TSR miniatures. In particular their Star Frontiers figures and spaceships. They came in boxes and almost everyone I hear from who has bought them from old stock, have had lead rot problems. Lead rot isn't contagious, persay, you don't have to worry about it infecting your other miniatures as long as they aren't stored together in an enclosed unventilated area. If you are really worried, and want to save what you can, I'd clean the existing corrosion off with a file and wire brush. Wash them in soapy water and let them dry. Soak them in isopropyl alchohol (the purer the better) for a couple days to expell any water and acid from them, let them dry again for a couple days, then give them a coat of primer. Paint them as soon as possible, then give a good sealer coat. Then store them in some place that is not enclosed, like on a shelf, not in a closed storage case. This should help avoid the problem.
I read a good article on it and why it happens from an article about the Navy Department's ship model collection. They had a problem with it damaging their ship models with lead parts. They store them in glass and wood display cabinets that were sealed. They found that they had to cut two fairly large holes in the cases so that natural air movement would ventilate the cases enough to reduce the problem.
http://www.dt.navy.mil/cnsm/lead_01.html (http://www.dt.navy.mil/cnsm/lead_01.html)
I'm pretty sure that if you get stuff which was cast up closer to the demised of Target this will be less of a problem. Also if you stick with blistered items, you will have a lower incidence of it as air can breath through the cardboard easier in the blister packs than it can in the sealed in plastic boxed sets. I wonder if they used different metal formulas in the Chronopia line? Stuff with a higher lead content would be more prone to the problem. I heard that they had more than one foundry, perhaps they used different metal formulas in the different factories and this is why its a problem. I know some of the really old stuff is lead. All of the Risen Swordsmen and lots of the Sons of Kronos figs I have are lead.
That being said I'm sad to hear that they may be dropping the Chronopia line, I may need to place my last order sooner than later. I need to get a few Sons of Kronos models I missed in my earlier orders, a couple units of Dwarves, and a Stygian arny! I have faith that another order will not have problems. Maybe they'll have one last big blow out sale before they drop it, if they do.
-
Good info delthos. I was pretty sure it wasn't lead rot, and now I'm even more sure. Regardless, for a lot of the figures the problem was so widespread that it was just unacceptable quality. Others may disagree..especially if they get some figures that aren't quite as bad. Good luck to anyone ordering.
-
Thanks for the info... Some friends and I recently ordered $300 worth of Chronopia minis. I'll be sure to share our results too.
-
Daargrim, I couldn't look at your pictures earlier, photobucket is blocked at my work. Now that I'm home I can see them. That is definitely lead rot. I suspect that Target used a lead alloy. This really doesn't happen with the alloys used in modern miniatures. Its especially noticeable on that spear tip and spearshaft, its so bad that their is a hole in the tip there. If the others were worse than this, it was probably for the best that they were returned. This isn't a case of being overly picky. These are bad, although this one is still salvageable, although the spear is probably a little too far gone. You could go with a piece of brass rod and sculpt your own tip with some plastic card and green stuff or just some brown stuff.
I really suggest that if you plan to keep and try to use them, clean all of it off and do what I recommended earlier. If you want to repair the really bad spots with some green stuff I think it would be ok, but I'm not sure. Just do it after you clean all the corroded metal off and did the soapy water wash and alcohol soak.
I just opened my Sons of Kronos Scythed Chariot and it's got early stage lead rot. This fig is a really old lead fig though, its not the newer pewter alloy. It's not bad, although there are some finer details that may get wiped out when I clean it. I suspect the foam that they packaged them in has a high acid content. The reason I say that is because the places with the worst incidence of lead rot is right where the foam was pressed against the miniatures. It honestly looks a little bit like mold on mine as it has a slight yellowish/green color. This is nothing like what was on my Cursed figs though. The chariot is definitely salvageable, most of it is on large flat or smooth areas which will file down easily enough. Give it another year in the box though and I suspect it would be really bad.
The Stygian Sisters of Tiamat, which is also all lead except for the resin part, has absolutely no rot on it. I'm planning to take some other pictures later tonight. I'll post pictures of the rot that is on my chariot.
-
Huh, interesting...I guess I wasn't off my rocker when I thought it was lead rot. The others for the most part were not worse than these. and some were pretty mild (a tip of a spear, the outside of the knee, etc etc). But I sent them all back including the Iron Guard above. So I won't be going through your repair suggestions.
Your theory about the foam is interesting. Of all the boxed sets we ordered this spring (probably about 30), only 3 showed no sign of this. And those were the only 3 boxes where the minis came in a plastic baggie inside the box. So they were not touching the foam.
Your description of the SOK chariot sounds similar to what mine was like, except I think my damage was more widespread.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that you found this condition on some of your minis, but I also feel good that I'm not "crying wolf" on Prince August since I'm not the only one.
-
Now that you mention it, I think the Sisters of Tiamat pieces were in a plastic bag. I think its about time I got those parts out of the box and assembled it and cleaned it up, before it sets in.
-
Uh-Oh
*runs in panic to check unopened Chronopia boxes*
-
So, sorry I didn't get this done sooner. This weekend being the 4th and all I was pretty busy. Anyway here are the pictures I took of my SoK Scythed Chariot.
First, the piece that has it the most, one of the Horses. You can see the slight yellowish/green color of the rot. This is the worst of it and it is very thin and will be easy to repair, if I had bought it for the horses that is. I'm actually only going to use the chariot itself and the driver in a conversion for a Warriors of Chaos Chariot, so I'm not too worried about the horses. I'll probably clean them up and use them on a terrain piece or something.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k112/prozinskij/Just%20Stuff/SoKHorseLeadRot.jpg)
Which brings us to the wheels. This is probably the second worst piece.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k112/prozinskij/Just%20Stuff/SoKWheelandAxeHandle.jpg)
Then here are a bunch of different parts. You can see it on the back edge of the seat, the javelin quiver, the tips of the scythe blades, and just ever so slightly on the side panels. All in all not bad.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k112/prozinskij/Just%20Stuff/SoKChariotSeatScythesandQuiver.jpg)
I just thought I should have taken some pictures of the Cursed to show what I was talking about on them, but alas it is too late. So we'll see maybe in a future update.
-
Alright so our fairly large order just arrived and we saw almost no rot. A very minor amount appeared on 2 keepers and a few elf axemen. These look like they'll wash off with some soap and water. That's pretty good out of the 51 units/packs we ordered. Shipment was quick! They left Ireland on july 1st and arrived (Canada) on the 6th. Overall we have no complaints other than receiving a brotherhood mortificator instead of a mishiman toshiro and missing a lotus eater with a hand written note that the credit will appear on our next order... we weren't planning on ordering again though.
-
MassDistortion,
I'm trying to get an idea for which items are worse. Those items that had some lead rot, were they boxed set items or were they blistered items? I'm like you in that only one boxed item (SoK Scythed Charior) had what I'd call actual lead rot. Two blisters (8 Cursed miniatures) have something that looks more like poor casting rather than lead rot. Perhaps we could make a list of the items that have had lead rot, and this way people would know what items are more likely to have problems. They can then order at their own risk.
-
Here is what we purchased. Items in Bold had some sort of potential lead rot.
Chris
-----
2x obsidian guard // 1x adamantite golem // 1x warkiller
James
------
1x great warrior // 1x 4 starved // 1x 4 swordsmen // 2x 2 spearman
1x guardian // 1x embalmed // 1x 4 axemen
Archie
-------
1x Elven Axemen Boxset
1x Spearmen Boxset
1x Flying Dragonbane // 1x Warkiller // 1x Adamantite Golem // 1x Obsidian Guard
1x Warrior of the Golden Mask // 2x Lotus Eater // 1x Warrior of the Sun
1x Keeper of the Flame Leader // 1x 4 Swordsmen // 2x 4 Militia
1x Dragon Clan Slaves // 5x Elf Archer Leader // 1x Swordsman Leader
1x Militia Leader // 1x Black Sister Leader // 1x Greatswordsman
Mike
-----
2x Blood Totem + Keeper
2x Vulture Mallet Warriors - only 1 figure affected
1x Soulflayer
1x Axe-horn Warriors // 1x Warshields // 1x Crossbowmen // 1x Dark-Tusk Hero
1x Hornskull Champion // 3x Firethrower Team // 1x Horned Ones Spearmen // 1x Warzone Mishima Toshiro
I've taken some pics of the degree of "rot" we have. It isn't severe but best of all, I've found a way to remove it very easily without destroying detail. To do this, I use Dremel with a Carbon Steel Brush tip. It's quick and easy to do. Wear protective goggles though ;)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4077/4769515710_97747a64fe_b.jpg)
Totem. Not sure if this some sort of rot but I noticed the discolouration on both Totems I purchased and in different areas.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4099/4768876819_c7cb61b2a3.jpg)
Here are the 2 keepers. One of them I started cleaning at work. You can see the difference it makes on the belly. I haven't lost any detail yet and the mini looks shiny and new :P
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4768877277_b6d3eae540_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4769515850_d90ae00849_b.jpg)
Here is one of my Vulture Mallet Warriors. The odd thing is that the mini looks cracked right down the middle of it.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4118/4768876763_dc7432cbd7_b.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4769516196_2d0b3b12f7_b.jpg)
I was like a kid on christmas! It's been 10 years since I've opened a blister pack :P
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4141/4768877601_0b6ceca843_b.jpg)
Hope this helps! :)
-
That crack isn't from the lead rot, that's from metal cooling at different rates causing the metal to shrink at different rates and actually pulling itself apart. I wouldn't worry about the discoloration on the resin. That's likely just from something that got into the resin when it was cast. It's not uncommon for odd color variances in resin, especially with this hard resin they used. It's just part of the process. It could be part of the resin that wasn't completely mixed. It could have been some marker that was on the mold. Anything really, but its not a problem. What you've shown is about what my Chariot has.
-
I was looking through some very old emails today and I came across the following potential fix for the lead rot. You could try it. I'm going to try it on one of the pieces I don't plan on using tonight and see how it works. I'll let you know for sure.
You could try the old silver cleaning trick. Fill a pan or heat proof
bowl with water, it must be non-aluminum. Put aluminum foil in the
bottom, heat, and add baking soda till no more soda dissolves.
Drop in your lead mini, and the Aluminum should reduce it back to the
metal, and pull off the oxidation. This works great on tarnished
silver too, and is INSTANEOUS.
AL is a very strong reducing agent, the problem is it protected by a
oxide coating. Slightly basic conditions counteract this, and allow
the aluminum to reduce other metals.
-
I know what that is: it is oxidation of your miniatures. Should they give you a heafty discount for minis like that? Yes. Anyways I might order form Prince August?
I wanted to order Banshees (Division 13) possibly? Think it might be risky? Should I?
Also is Prince August the company that took over from Excelsior to produce the minis or do they simply sell old stock from other sources, like Excelsior they acquired?
-
They purchased all of the remaining stock Target games had after they closed doors. What they have is all ther eever will be.
Apparantly the problem with lead rot isn't as much of a problem with the Warzone stuff, just the Chronopia stuff. You probably have much better chances of getting stuff in good condition. That being said, by the sounds of things most stuff in boxes, from the Chronopia line has problems, unless they were packaged in plastic bags inside the foam. It also sounds like the Dwarfs also have problems, even with blisters.
I had only one item with problems, out of about $350 dollars worth of orders.
If you stay away from boxes, and go with Warzone products, I think you stand better than 90% of having no problems. That being said I have plans to buy some Stygian stuff.
-
Horned God : I've seen only very limited rot on warzone miniatures (Easily removable with a modeler's knife and file), nothing like those horror images on the first page (it's one of the best/worst case i've seen so far).
That said, i have miniatures that seem to have been cast with a lack of material, they look very "shiny" and miss some detail here and there. My most infamous example is one of my golgotha miniatures; she lacks half the back of her tighs and part of her bum, as well as half of the algeroth insigna. The replacement ones didn't show this problem.
-
I'm with you, Oakwolf. I've got a few WZ figs that I've had to apply Green Stuff to in order to fill in some poor casting. It wasn't as bad as a flat-butted Golgotha (which ranks the same as a mullet in Walmart), but it was somehting that had to be handled or it would've looked silly.
I've not ever seen lead rot like that. I didn't think that was possible!
-
To further up the discussion, i've received my first chronopia miniatures from Prince August . They were from blisters, and most of the minis did not show any rot or oxydation of the metal apart 2 (out of 12). Of those, the stage of degradation was minor but the metal had changed color to the same flat grey, as if a very thin layer of the surface had oxydated.The only concern i have about it is that it might make the paint jobs look "roughened".
Since the models were in blisters, the cause might not even be related to how Prince August keep their stocks, but maybe how the things were cast in the first place.
-
Speaking soley for myself, I would like to comment (perhaps from left field, perhaps not).
As a miniatures gamer, it has been my experience that there is always some measure of "poor" casting, blemishes and/or any other number of imperfections that require my attention in order for the model to turn out looking how I would like it to be.
That said, I find myself perplexed by the comments made about this. I assume that no model will come to me in perfect condition. Further, whether something as simple as flash or as complicated as a missing/damaged part, I simply chalk it up to the fact that nothing is 100% correct in life. Things get through the quality assurance process (no matter the stringency) and I accept this. It seems from the comments that I have read here that many do not. Am I the only one that feels this way?
I grew up building models. My fist was of a Sheridan light tank. I was six years of age. I built it with Elmer's glue and help from my father (a great memory). Even while building that, there were some imperfections, but at six, I was more interested in building it and making it look like the picture on the box. It didn't happen to look that way when done, but, I was six.
I built many more models throughout my life. I was fortunate enough to live across the street from Debbie Dean. She worked at a hobby warehouse. She brought all kinds of models home that had defects (hence why she was able to bring them home). Most were missing parts, had broken parts, were missing instructions, etc. I built every single one of them.
When I was in my early 20's, I was employed as a model maker. I built things from scratch, including a six-feet by four-feet scale layout of Limerick niuclear power plant, a cutaway of a steam pump, scale models of the V-22 Osprey, the Bell-Boeing LHX, and more. Many times I had to use "corrective measures," and many times, I had to scrap and start over.
I guess what I am trying to say is, is it truly expected that when one is buying discount minis that there will be no incidences of extra work needed on the part of the purchaser?
-
Speaking soley for myself, I would like to comment (perhaps from left field, perhaps not).
As a miniatures gamer, it has been my experience that there is always some measure of "poor" casting, blemishes and/or any other number of imperfections that require my attention in order for the model to turn out looking how I would like it to be.
That said, I find myself perplexed by the comments made about this. I assume that no model will come to me in perfect condition. Further, whether something as simple as flash or as complicated as a missing/damaged part, I simply chalk it up to the fact that nothing is 100% correct in life. Things get through the quality assurance process (no matter the stringency) and I accept this. It seems from the comments that I have read here that many do not. Am I the only one that feels this way?
I grew up building models. My fist was of a Sheridan light tank. I was six years of age. I built it with Elmer's glue and help from my father (a great memory). Even while building that, there were some imperfections, but at six, I was more interested in building it and making it look like the picture on the box. It didn't happen to look that way when done, but, I was six.
I built many more models throughout my life. I was fortunate enough to live across the street from Debbie Dean. She worked at a hobby warehouse. She brought all kinds of models home that had defects (hence why she was able to bring them home). Most were missing parts, had broken parts, were missing instructions, etc. I built every single one of them.
When I was in my early 20's, I was employed as a model maker. I built things from scratch, including a six-feet by four-feet scale layout of Limerick niuclear power plant, a cutaway of a steam pump, scale models of the V-22 Osprey, the Bell-Boeing LHX, and more. Many times I had to use "corrective measures," and many times, I had to scrap and start over.
I guess what I am trying to say is, is it truly expected that when one is buying discount minis that there will be no incidences of extra work needed on the part of the purchaser?
I can't speak for others, but the miniatures I received were well beyond what you are describing. The worst of them were simply coated with grey-green crud. Because of that, I ended up returning ANY miniature that showed ANY sign of the issue. Some of these minis with minimal issues I probably would have lived with had that been the only problem. I would have attempted to file them down and clean them. But that truly wasn't going to happen with 70% of the minis I returned. It would have taken hours upon hours to clean up the mess, and much of the detail would have been ruined (or had already been destroyed).
So I understand what you are saying, but I just want anyone interested to know that I dont think what you are describing reflects my personal experience with these particular miniatures.
-
Speaking soley for myself, I would like to comment (perhaps from left field, perhaps not).
As a miniatures gamer, it has been my experience that there is always some measure of "poor" casting, blemishes and/or any other number of imperfections that require my attention in order for the model to turn out looking how I would like it to be.
That said, I find myself perplexed by the comments made about this. I assume that no model will come to me in perfect condition. Further, whether something as simple as flash or as complicated as a missing/damaged part, I simply chalk it up to the fact that nothing is 100% correct in life. Things get through the quality assurance process (no matter the stringency) and I accept this. It seems from the comments that I have read here that many do not. Am I the only one that feels this way?
I grew up building models. My fist was of a Sheridan light tank. I was six years of age. I built it with Elmer's glue and help from my father (a great memory). Even while building that, there were some imperfections, but at six, I was more interested in building it and making it look like the picture on the box. It didn't happen to look that way when done, but, I was six.
I built many more models throughout my life. I was fortunate enough to live across the street from Debbie Dean. She worked at a hobby warehouse. She brought all kinds of models home that had defects (hence why she was able to bring them home). Most were missing parts, had broken parts, were missing instructions, etc. I built every single one of them.
When I was in my early 20's, I was employed as a model maker. I built things from scratch, including a six-feet by four-feet scale layout of Limerick niuclear power plant, a cutaway of a steam pump, scale models of the V-22 Osprey, the Bell-Boeing LHX, and more. Many times I had to use "corrective measures," and many times, I had to scrap and start over.
I guess what I am trying to say is, is it truly expected that when one is buying discount minis that there will be no incidences of extra work needed on the part of the purchaser?
I think you are coming out of left field with this. This isn't anyone saying they need to fix the problem. This has purely been and educational thread, at least that's what I took it as. It's also a warning to others that if you buy them, there will likely be problems with some of the miniatures. As for expecting miniatures with no flaws, not I don't expect flawless, but when I order I don't expect figures that are flawed beyond a certain point. Sure, mold lines and flash, even an occasional miscast part is too be expected. But not parts that are corroded so bad you can't make out details. I don't know about you, but the reason I buy miniatures is because I like to see and paint the details, not just to get the overall impression of what they are supposed to be. My experiences with lead rot have not been bad, all of the rot I'm experiencing has been minor and I'll fix, just as you talk about. I would definitely expect a refund for stuff that was worse than Daargrim showed in his first pictures on the thread, as even those shown were close to unusable in my opinion. These may be discount miniatures, but they are still selling them as out of print but new stock and they give no indication on their site that the miniatures could have problems. I've purchased plenty of old stock miniatures that are older than these are and I expected those to have no more problems than any other miniatures I purchased brand new. If they do have problems, I expect the seller to inform me of the problems before I purchase them. It will save us both hassle, time, and money.
Another problem with the corrosion is you have to remove it and also neutralize it, or it will continue to eat away at the miniatures, even after being painted. It's not like a miscast weapon, where you can green stuff over the poor spot and be good to go. I'm not opposed to fixing and cleaning up a reasonable amount of problems on miniatures.
So yes, I do expect miniatures to be up to a certain standard, even old discount miniatures, especially if there is no information saying that there is a problem with them.
-
Perhaps I misspoke, or, at least, did not try to sympathize. Models which are beyond repair are a whole other can of worms, but I have read of others complaining of smaller issues. Also, I was trying topoint out that most of the good stock has, by now, been bought up, so PA has no stock to sell but the stuff that would not, ordinarily sell. They are doing it at a discounted rate, but, I do understand and agree that unsalvageable models should not be sold.
In any event, I meant no disrespect, nor did I mean to infer that many were simply complaining to complain. The complaints have merit. I was, I guess, trying to get to the root of the issue. I missed. My apologies.
-
... Also, I was trying to point out that most of the good stock has, by now, been bought up, so PA has no stock to sell but the stuff that would not, ordinarily sell. They are doing it at a discounted rate, but, I do understand and agree that unsalvageable models should not be sold....
Most of the issues I encountered were in shrink-wrapped boxes, so its not the case that these minis are just the end of their stock, and they are just now selecting and shipping out the worst of them. They would have no idea which of the boxes were "good" or "bad".
However, it could be the case that just father time has damaged these models more than, say, the same boxed sets sold 1-2-3 years ago.
-
I was looking through some very old emails today and I came across the following potential fix for the lead rot. You could try it. I'm going to try it on one of the pieces I don't plan on using tonight and see how it works. I'll let you know for sure.
You could try the old silver cleaning trick. Fill a pan or heat proof
bowl with water, it must be non-aluminum. Put aluminum foil in the
bottom, heat, and add baking soda till no more soda dissolves.
Drop in your lead mini, and the Aluminum should reduce it back to the
metal, and pull off the oxidation. This works great on tarnished
silver too, and is INSTANEOUS.
AL is a very strong reducing agent, the problem is it protected by a
oxide coating. Slightly basic conditions counteract this, and allow
the aluminum to reduce other metals.
I've tested this actually, submitting a few chronopia andwarzone miniatures that suffered from mild lead rot to the test. The miniatures were far from ruined, but the surface were roughened, and this would undoubtably worsen with time, and prevent any smooth painting.
Process used:
Iron pan with aluminium foil at the bottom. I pourred enough baking soda for it not to dilute in the water.
Then I heated this to a boil. It does produce a fluffy, foaming water (it is clear still and you could see the miniatures in there)
Effects:
The effect is definitely not instantaneous, nor actually that noticeable. However, i must say that a few rough areas seemed to loose part of their state and be minorly more recognisable. Another curious side effect, the miniature became dark grey instead of white metal. I'm no chemist so i have no idea what caused this.
I tried the good old "brasso" (made to polish pewter and many other materials) to remove the dark grey effect, but in vain.
Conclusion:
I'd rate this experiement as not conclusive; either a component i used was wrong, or it doesn't have much of an effect. Also...i've no idea why the miniatures turned dark grey, nor what it causes over time. I can definitely not say if lead rot will be stopped or worsened.
-
Just wanted to point out, I made another order during their 10/10/10 sale. This time I ordered a bunch of Stygian stuff, and a few Dwarf and SoK things. The order arrived in quick time. Ordered it on the 10th and received it on the 27th. Not bad, but not the best. I've received stuff in a week from the UK. There were few mistakes. I got some things I didn't order and some things were missing. They told me to keep the stuff I was shipped in error and that they would get the items I didn't receive in the mail. Cool. In addition to that, they now have lower priced shipping to the US, as a matter of fact they only have the one shipping type to the US which is registered with a tracking number.
As I said the order was mostly Stygian, about 25 blisters and an Ophidianl. In addition to the Stygian, I ordered a blister of SoK Warriors, a blister of SoK Warhounds and a Dwarf Dark Tusk Totem and Keeper, and a Horned Raider and Tusked Raider. Instead of an Ophidian I got a Firstborn Chariot, and instead of some Stygian Swordsmen, Stygian Tree Devil, and Sok Warriors, I got Stygian Starved, Dwarf Wolf Legion, and a Ogre Heavy Infantry Standard.
Now as too the status of the corrosion. Except for a couple blisters of Starved which look like they either have very very light corrosion, or possibly mold dust/mold release powder, all the blisters have no corrosion. Even the the dwarf blister has none, as opposed to the one repor where most of the dwarves were corroded. As for the Firstborn Chariot, just like the SoK Chariot I got in an earlier shipment, it had light corrosion on most of the parts. The Dwarf Totem has no corrosion. An interesting observation is that the Dwarf Totem was produced in the USA and all the metal parts were packaged in a plastic bag, the Firstborn Chariot on the other hand was produced in Ireland and all the parts were sandwiched between the foam with no plastic bags. It's now obvious to me that there is something in the foam that is reacting with the metal and causing it to corrode prematurely. This is based on the fact that a couple months ago I purchased a Sisters of Tiamat and a SoK Chariot. The Sisters of Tiamat were packaged in a plastic bag and had no corrosion while the SoK Chariot was not in plastic bags and had corrosion. So, that being said, I keep my fingers crossed that the Ophidian is in plastic bags or it just doesn't have any corrosion. I'm confident the blisters will be fine as well. If not it'll be back to eBay watching for the next Ophidian to come up. If this one is corroded, I won't be letting another get by me I tell you!
I guess I'm just getting lucky. I really don't have plans to buy anymore figs so I'll never know! With big armies of Devout, Firstborn, SoK, Stygian, and a decent size Dwarf army, I've got a big enough variety of forces that I will be able to provide miniatures for any of my friends who may be interested. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have a Blackblood and Elf army but I don't need them. If my friends aren't satisfied with what I have they'll just have to find proxies! Truth be told I have a couple figs from both those armies, some figs I just had to have because I like them too much.
So I can reiterate, I've purchased Firstborn, SoK, Devout, Stygian, and a few Dwarf items from Prince August. Of those, we're talking about 100 blisters, almost none of those blistered items had corrosion, of those that do, I'm not even sure on and I think it's actually mold release powder and not corrosion. The boxed items are another story. All told I've gotten a SoK Chariot, SoK Blade Maidens, Firstborn Chariot, Dwarf Totem and Keeper, two sets of Devout Tormented and Damned, a Soul Flayer, a Sisters of Tiamat, and a yet to be received Ophidian. Of those, only two of them have been corroded and even that is light, it is not heavy at all. That is 2 (potentially 3) of nine boxes that have had problems. That is between 1/4 and 1/3 of them, which is pretty high. I think if you avoid boxed miniatures from the Chronopia line, you won't have any problems with ordering Chronopia figs from Prince August. Even then, they obviously have a fairly high proportion that don't have problems, albeit there are lots more boxed sets I didn't buy. I can't even say for sure if you order some of the boxes I ordered with no corrosion, that you will have the same experience.
All said and done Prince August has been outstanding to me. They've allowed me to get nearly everything I wanted and complete some armies I've got, two of them I never even had miniatures for in the past. I've only got good things to say about them.
-
Happy to hear you had a good experience, Delthos. I will second your opinion that Prince August has always been good to work with and I always came away satisfied with their customer service. Just had bad luck with their figs recently.
-
Another update. I just received the three missing blisters and the missing Ophidian.
The blisters, Stygian Swordsmen (two pack), Stygian Tree Devil, and SoK Warriors (four pack) had no "lead rot". They are in beautiful condition. The Stygian Ophidian on the other hand is just starting to exhibit some lead rot. It's not significant at all though. Once I get it home and out of the foam in the box it should be alright. This was another one that was made in Ireland. I'm glad this one turned out good.
In my opinion, more and more evidence to stay away from certain boxed miniatures from the Chronopia line, not that all of them have the problem. (Stygian Sisters of Tiamat and Dwarf Totem and Keeper were packaged in internal plastic bags and had no problems.) As time goes by those ones that currently have lead rot in the box will only get worse and will be unsalvageable if not opened and removed from the foam. I really think there is something in the foam that is causing the corrosion to accellerate.
-
The only lead rot I have come across is a very limited amount on some of the older Warzone Valkyries. Their cloaks were pretty messed up, but it was easy to remove with a scalpel. The only Chronopia models I have bought recently are some Dwarf axemen, and they were perfectly fine.