Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Pollo on March 02, 2010, 03:07:26 AM
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Pollo's question number 7:
According to rules, mounted troops have a Front Facing of 180° and a Firing Arc of 360°. Does it mean that they can draw LOS in every direction? Even for non-RC Actions (like Spot)?
P
P.S.: Jobian Cavaliers have the Gunslinger SA: isn't it redundant?
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Since you mention the cavaliers I think you refer to the UWZ rules.
As by the UWZ rules it simply doesnīt matter for the indicated case.
LOS is always drawn within an arc of 360° if not diminished by terrain obstructions or special other things.
Tha advantage is that mounted troops can use their greater firing arc. Other models would have to use a move action to turn first.
But remember that in some cases the facing is still relevant!
You still can only react with actions from wait as countercharge or brace or withdraw if the originating action to react on is initiated within the front facing.
As by this circumstances I would say that yes, the gunslinger Ability for the cavaliers is redundant.
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LOS is always drawn within an arc of 360° if not diminished by terrain obstructions or special other things.
Yes, it is true, sorry. I forgot that rule.
But my doubt is still the same: which targets can a model (any model, not only mounted) Spot? Those in its Front Facing, or those in its Firing Arc?
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You can try to spot everything in LOS, since radius for LOS is 360° for any model, if not diminished through obstacles or prone status, you can try to spot in an arc of 360°.
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you can try to spot in an arc of 360°.
I regret to say that this is not correct. As stated in section 6.1 of manual:
However, if a figure simply wants to turn around, to fire at, or Spot a model behind it, it must use an Action to do so.
So, my question remains unresolved!
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For Firing and turning I follow this section in6.1 as it is covered in the other sections as well, but the basic terms and rules tell me otherwise.
And even the specifics on spooting itself refer to LOS and not to movement as under 6.1.
Und logical aspects I would follow the basics and specifics and not your quoted section on movement.
1.3 Line of Sight:
A model has LOS to another model if an unobstructed line can be
drawn between them, regardless of distance. LOS is measured
from 360' of your model, unless specifically stated othewise in
the model's special rules
6.2.7 under "Making a spot check":
"If the Spotting model can draw LOS to the Concealed model, simply roll a d20...."
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So, there is a contradiction between section 6.1 (turning necessary) and section 6.2.7 (turning not necessary).
Any official resolution?
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9.1 Line of Sight and ranged combat. A model wishing to use a fire action may do so by drawing LOS to the closest enemy within 360 degees of his base. However, a model can only fire upon a target within his front facing ( front 180 degrees).
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That means that if the closest enemy is not in your front arc, you must turn to face the closest enemy, spending an AC to do so.
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The contraddiction in the manual is about Spotting, not about Firing.
For Firing, you must have your enemy in your Arc of Fire. No doubt.
But for Spotting?
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6.1 tells you that you have to move if the target your trying to spot is not in your forward facing. 6.2.7 tells you that spotting cost 1 action and that you cant move and spot as the same action. So to spot a target you need to have it in your forward facing unless a model has a special ability that states differently.
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So to spot a target you need to have it in your forward facing unless a model has a special ability that states differently.
I donīt read that out of 6.2.7....
I stick to 360° for spotting and 180° for firing
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But your not accounting for 6.1 which clearly states this, and noware in 6.2.7 does it state you dont have to do this.
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But your not accounting for 6.1 which clearly states this, and noware in 6.2.7 does it state you dont have to do this.
I still stick to my interpretation
I think the section 6.1 is not true for the spotting part.... If not a typo than maybe a contradictory choice of words.
All the other sections about spotting refer to LOS and even for target choice it is always LOS in a 360°.
Only if it comes to firing or reacting to other actions thereīs the mention of facing....
It just doesnīt make sense to me to change that for spotting.
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I dont know if your from another country so i'am not trying to be insulting, But you cant say a rule is untrue because it doesn't fit your interpretation. I'll try to give an exsample: your facing the north, directly south of you is a man behind a stone fence with very little of his body exposed. My question do you just see him or do you have to turn to try to see him? If your group plays with your interpretation and everyone agrees to that. There'e nothing wrong with it. We play it here the way i'am stating it. I cant think of to many scenarios where a model your trying to spot is not in your forward facing unless the model has a special ability like stealth, stalk, or lurk.
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No offense taken.
And I donīt want to redo the rules, but my line of interpretation may simply be another one.
I want to give you my line of reasoning, perhaps youīll find something that makes it clearer or gives a part of insight why I deduced this view.
And perhaps you see that itīs not totally invalid.
And I donīt want to be offensive by sticking to my point of view either. And I do not want to tell a rule untrue because it doesnīt fit my interpretation or liking. I just have another opinion and think this is also covered by the rules. (As naturally yours is too, even if I think that the part under 6.1 is more a filler in the sentence than a fix ruling - it is valid in itīs way)
And yes Iīm from another country and some other interpretations may differ through the translating. Or I canīt get it clearly out because of my lacking language skills.
So, what I tried is to go from the most basic rules - the definition of LOS - to the special rulings on specific actions. This leads me pretty directly to 6.2.7 where the action in question is defined and described..
Because 6.1 refers to move actions and spotting isnīt a kind of move action, I donīt give this part that much credit that you do.
Further spotting is under the general section 6.2 which actually makes it to an attack action - and again not a move action of another section.
Thatīs why I refer to 1.3 and 6.2.7 only and not to 6.1 in the middle.
Besides that the sentence under section 6.1 can be read in another way. Just another kind of pronounciation of parts - and perhaps I do it only because for me english is a foreign language - lets the sentence look like a listing which changes the outcome:
"However, if a figure simply wants to
1- turn around,
2- to fire at,
3- or Spot a model behind it,
it must use an Action to do so."
It can be read that the listed actions all cost an action; to be simply an enumeration of actions worth a full action.
And each of the listed actions is separated with a comma.
It explicitly doesnīt say "to turn around to fire at - to turn around to spot a model".
But your not accounting for 6.1 which clearly states this, and noware in 6.2.7 does it state you dont have to do this.
--> And again thatīs why I donīt see that itīs īclearly stated that you have to turn aroundī for spotting only.
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It can be read that the listed actions all cost an action; to be simply an enumeration of actions worth a full action.
I don' t think it is so. The section is about Moving, not Firing nor Spotting.
The sentence sounds like "if a figure wants to turn around IN ORDER TO fire at or spot a model behind it...".
Anyway, we may go on theorizing for a long time... I really think only the FAQ team can solve the question.
This contradiction implies a basic aspect of the game, therefore it really needs to be FAQed.
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The problem in getting the FAQ Team to come to consensus on this is that you are discussing first edition rules. As far as UWZ (3rd ed.) is concerned, if you have LOS to a model, and it is the closest target but is out of your firing arc, you must1 spend an AC to turn the model in order to fire at it or you may charge it, in which case, you may turn during the charge. Spending an AC to turn does come with a side benefit; you may perform an entire Move AC during that AC.
In UWZ, the only thing necessary to perform a Spot AC is to be able to draw LOS to the model you are attempting to Spot. It does not need to be in your firing arc. In order to fire upon it, once Spotted, it then must be in your firing arc, and must be the closest enemy model to the firing model. IN other words, if it is the closest enemy model, you must face it and fire; you may not fire at a farther enemy model, because LOS, now, exists to the closest model.
1 - Target Priority assumes that you are firing at or charging the target, and therefore must fire at the closest enemy model. You do not have to face a model if you intend to Move or perform another non-attack AC. Turning while already in CC does not cost an AC.
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We are NOT discussing first edition rules! ;D Where did you read it?? We all are referring to UWZ manual in this thread! :D
Anyway, the problem is finally cleared! Thanks!
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In UWZ, the only thing necessary to perform a Spot AC is to be able to draw LOS to the model you are attempting to Spot. It does not need to be in your firing arc. In order to fire upon it, once Spotted, it then must be in your firing arc, and must be the closest enemy model to the firing model. IN other words, if it is the closest enemy model, you must face it and fire; you may not fire at a farther enemy model, because LOS, now, exists to the closest model.
1 - Target Priority assumes that you are firing at or charging the target, and therefore must fire at the closest enemy model. You do not have to face a model if you intend to Move or perform another non-attack AC. Turning while already in CC does not cost an AC.
Thatīs what I was telling the whole time referring to UWZ rules..., but Iwasnīttrustworthy enough ;)
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We are NOT discussing first edition rules! ;D Where did you read it?? We all are referring to UWZ manual in this thread! :D
Anyway, the problem is finally cleared! Thanks!
I am sorry. I was under the assumption that this was all part of the 1st ed. rules discussion. I must have brought that over from some of the other threads being discussed, currently. Again, my apologies.
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6.1 tells you that you have to move if the target your trying to spot is not in your forward facing. 6.2.7 tells you that spotting cost 1 action and that you cant move and spot as the same action. So to spot a target you need to have it in your forward facing unless a model has a special ability that states differently.
I tend to agree with Lopis, on this, Phil. As 6.1 is more a broader definition of the rule, and 6.2.7 is a more detailed definition of Spot.