Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Chronopia => Game Questions => Topic started by: joshuaslater on January 24, 2006, 07:01:44 AM
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Okay, Dalton's Ogre Death Seeker moves within four inches of my Wolf Clan Axe Men. I fail the Fear test. The way we've been playing it is that these guys can't charge the Ogre--they're already afraid, meaning they can't charge it, (you can't charge the fear causing model) and go berserk on that charge. Is this correct? Can you go berserk if you've failed a fear test, or do you have to move away from the Fear causing model, regroup, hope to win initiative, then go berserk and charge?
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As always you question is very interesting and a very hard one... ;)
I would say yes, because
* Berserk is a special ability, and they are ranked higher, as I see it, than the normal rules...
* you can't berserk if panicked..so as there is no explanation for fear, it should work that way...
I would say no, because
* if it should be like you say, you could give the unit steadfast or immune to fear or something like this...
* it doesn't make sense...first you wet your pants when seing your foe, and then you get angry and kill him cause you wet your pants? ;)
* not being immune to fear for example is a drawback and by using berserk you would ignore this...I don't think it should work this way...
* when you are in fear, you have only one action, you may make another fearcheck, move away or attack another model/unit within range...
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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At the con the ruling was berserk will override fear.
rules state if the model is panicked (failed moral check) before it goes berserk then no. I think this is to prevent a squad thats down 50% + fail a moral check just to use berserk to ignore the failed rolled.
But it says nothing about fear in fact it says if model goes berserk it ignores fear and no longer prone to test for panick.
so the short of it. If squads panicked it cant go berserk. but if fear model steps in -cause a non-panick squad to suffer fear. The squad can op to go berserk and ignore it.
it would seem berserking models are crazy like that. :P
at least this is how bill ruled it at the con.
* it doesn't make sense...first you wet your pants when seing your foe, and then you get angry and kill him cause you wet your pants? ;)
in the moments of greatest fear the person either breaks down or flips outs and goes bat nuts crazy. Kinda like a berserker. :P
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If that's the case Steve, it would seem that Berserk confers immune to fear; you can just ignore the fear test because you are going to go berserk anyway. I am going to stick to my guns and argue that you can't; under the Berserk special ability it says this is a free action on a charge, (if I'm not mistaken, no rulebook at the office) so how can you go berserk when you're stricken with fear and CAN'T charge the big baddie? This could use tidying up in the errata, even if just to state what some would think straightforward.
P.S.--Please don't take offence; Bill's ruling at the con had no bearing on you sweeping the tourney and kickin' my butt. I really would like a definitive answer on this so I can kill Dalton's Ogres and Trolls. ;D
Sincerely,
Joshua Slater, future court jester in the hall of the masherking. Cheers.
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P.S.--Please don't take offence
None was taken. ;)
I to would like to hear what others say.
Troll killing is serious work and one must make sure its done right. 8)
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As a fellow Dwarf player I know who's side you're on. In playing devil's advocate/rules lawyer I am REALLY HOPING THE RULE COMES DOWN ON YOUR SIDE! This will change things drastically with our games, and boy will I feel sheepish if we've been playing it wrong all this time. (Like so many other things, sigh) My obsessive-compulsion in editing the rules comes from an English major background--our current rulebook riles me to no end, and I've offered my editorial eye to EE for anything further they print. I'm hoping Thom takes me up on this. Cheers, and LONG LIVE THE MASHERKING!
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The rule clearly states: You must state you are going to Berserk BEFORE YOU ENTER COMBAT.
To enter combat means charging, there is no other way to enter combat...
So you move your model in btb to the other model and say: I charge your XYZ and go Berserk.
As you are not allowed to charge (i.e. enter combat) the model which caused the fear check, you may not go berserk and charge the fear inducing model.
Going berserk and charging any other model while under the effect of fear is perfectly legal though...
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I thought the only legal action while under the effects of fear was to move away from the fear causing model.
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The rule clearly states: You must state you are going to Berserk BEFORE YOU ENTER COMBAT.
To enter combat means charging, there is no other way to enter combat...
So you move your model in btb to the other model and say: I charge your XYZ and go Berserk.
As you are not allowed to charge (i.e. enter combat) the model which caused the fear check, you may not go berserk and charge the fear inducing model.
Going berserk and charging any other model while under the effect of fear is perfectly legal though...
Gonna have to disagree with you. The Berserk rules say:
A unit with this Special Ability may choose to go into a Berserker rage and attack an enemy model with increased Ferocity. You must state youa re going to Berserk before you enter combat (this does not take an Action)
Entering Berserk is not part of the Charge action. You choose to go into Berserker rage before you enter combat. So by the time you charge you are already in Berserker mode and thus immune to Fear.
Also note the final sentence
You may not go into Berserk if panicked
It only mentions Panic, not Fear.
I would say that the rules allow you to go Berserk if affected by Fear, but I would like to hear what Wedge and Southpaw have to say.
I thought the only legal action while under the effects of fear was to move away from the fear causing model.
Take a look at page 77, under "The effects of Fear are as follows". :)
You cannot charge the Fear-causing model but you could shoot him, stab him with a spear or even hit him if you are already in CC with it.
/Andreas
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With that in mind, what's the point of having a roll for a fear check against models with the Berserk ability? It seems they are also Immune to Fear. If you lose one action due to the effects of fear and can't charge the fear causing model, can you go Berserk on another nearby model within one move, begging the question; are you still in fear at all? What happens next?
To bring it into focus; what happens when the fear causing model comes within four inches of the unit with berserk and they fail the fear check, because they're not berserk yet?
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I would say as long as you are in the radius of fear you will succumb to fear when you come of berserk....
When you go into berserk you have to attack the nearest enemy model...when the enemy is killed berserk will end...and you will be in fear again... ;)
The question is on how many actions will you have? As you are already succumbed to fear, you will have one action. Will berserk give you two actions? I don't think so...
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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I would say that the rules allow you to go Berserk if affected by Fear, but I would like to hear what Wedge and Southpaw have to say.
We are in complete agreement here, please reread my post.
But you may not charge the fear inducing model, not even by going berserk, you still suffer from the restrictments of fear, even while being berserk it does not remove your fear counter...
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But you may not charge the fear inducing model, not even by going berserk, you still suffer from the restrictments of fear, even while being berserk it does not remove your fear counter...
I disagree, I think the fear counter will be abrogated as long as you are in berserker rage. After that you have to check if the effects and rules of fear still apply...
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OT: i keep reading posts to learn how to play warzone, through "show unread posts since last visit", get all confused, then realize i'm in the chronopia section and not warzone!! why do they have to have similar rules... lol! ;D
sorry for the OT ;)
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To bring it into focus; what happens when the fear causing model comes within four inches of the unit with berserk and they fail the fear check, because they're not berserk yet?
OK, there are some possible moves for you...
1) you use an action to reroll the fearcheck
2) you move your troops out of the radius of fear (with the result that you are no longer succumbed to fear)
3) you attack another model within you charging distance
4) you attack an enemey model already in cc with you
5) you are a missile unit...you shoot at the fear causing model or any other model within 12" inch...
6) you go into berserk and charge the nearest model (perhaps it is the fear-causer)
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
hmmm...are there more ways? I don't think so...
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But you may not charge the fear inducing model, not even by going berserk, you still suffer from the restrictments of fear, even while being berserk it does not remove your fear counter...
I still say that since you are Immune to Fear you do not suffer the effects of Fear any longer while Berserk. So you can charge the guy who got you afraid.
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What I'm thinkin' is that my Axemen will lose one action, period. Then they can go Berserk and take ONE action. At this point they are immune to fear. There has to be a result of a failed fear check to go with the success. If they 20 out on the Fear check, there's NOTHING they can do, and if they perfect 1 they gain hatred. I think losing an action sounds right, but then they can go berserk and charge whatever's nearest. On their next turn they will either still be Berserk, requiring no roll, or they will have killed whatever they charged, requiring a new save, or they will have killed the fear causing model and have no worries. This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Otherwise Berserk is a more powerful Immune to Fear.
My head is pounding. I'm leaving my office to go home. Walk the dogs, eat some dinner. Paint some Swamp Goblins. I'll see how this cooks up tomorrow morning. Cheers.
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On a small note.
it is not always best to go berserk.
joshua's question "why bother to induce fear to a berserk model?"
to force him to go berserk is my answer. As kool as it is, it still is a +4 to def to hit. (with dark axes its a +6, +7 on a charge)
and if the model is on wait you force him lose a that wait action (I think fear does that?).
thats why the dark tusk totem is neat with both cause fear and berserk.
I can chose when the totem plays the berserk card because cause fear makes it immune to fear.
Berserk is a neat SA but its not all roses and smart player can make use of it flaws 8)
just some food for thought. ;)
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One thing you have to remember...
Special abilities ALWAYS take precedence over the basic rules. It's the exception with every game you play. In a card game the rules may say, "You cannot take more than one action per turn". But a special card says, "Play this card and you can take two actions this turn". Extend that same concpetual idea with Fear and Berserk. Fear says you cannot charge the model that causes fear. But Berserk says you are immune to fear when declaring berserk. This is a typical case of a special ability over-riding a general rule.
Berserking models are just THAT GOOD. That is why there are so few of them. If an Ogre moves within 4" of a squad of Dragonskull warriors and they fail their fear test they can on their very next activation declare berserk, remove the fear marker, and charge the Ogre. They are so worked up in their berserk frenzy that they have thrown caution to the wind.
As Coil pointed out, Berserk mentions that you cannot berserk while panicked but it mentions nothing of fear. I think this was intentional.
While it may not sound realistic to some of you, it sounds completely feasible to me. Furthermore, there are bad things with berserk... you cannot deviate to another target until the target of the berserk is dead and your Def modifier suffers as well. A clarification in the FAQ would be helpful on this subject, but I think the ruling is pretty clear.
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I agree with you 100% Wedge.
Let's summarize the main points of contention here.
1. Berserk, by it's wording, does not require a Charge to use, so thus can be used outside of Close Combat.
2. Models that are Berserk are Immune to Fear.
3. Berserk states that you may not go Berserk while *panicked*, but it makes no mention of Fear, or any other Morale state.
So, if a model with Berserk happens to fail a Fear test, they can then go Berserk if they choose. At that point, the model becomes Immune to Fear. When the Berserk ends, assuming the model is still alive, it will be subject to Fear at that point.
It may sound like a loophole, but as masherking and others very skillfully pointed out, Berserk does have flaws, and they can be HUGE ones if planned out carefully.
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Ok, I could live with that, but have one question:
Isn`t it true, that all models have to be Berserl to become immune to panic and fear?
So if my let`s say my 3 berserkers have failed their fear test. I activate them and berserker nr.1 declares berserk, then he wants to charge the fear inducing model, my opponent could (rightfully imo) stop me, because nr 2. and 3 are not Berserk (yet).
So would I have to activate model 1 declare berserk, move it around, then do so again with model 2 , and then finally with model 3 I can charge the fear inducing after I declare Berserk?
Sorry to be a pest, but this interpretation of the rules contradicts the rule as it is stated in the book imo...
What do you think?
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Isn`t it true, that all models have to be Berserl to become immune to panic and fear?
So if my let`s say my 3 berserkers have failed their fear test. I activate them and berserker nr.1 declares berserk, then he wants to charge the fear inducing model, my opponent could (rightfully imo) stop me, because nr 2. and 3 are not Berserk (yet).
So would I have to activate model 1 declare berserk, move it around, then do so again with model 2 , and then finally with model 3 I can charge the fear inducing after I declare Berserk?
Sorry to be a pest, but this interpretation of the rules contradicts the rule as it is stated in the book imo...
You are right, all model in a warband have to go berserk. BUT you are wrong, too. Whenever a unit/warband has to roll for morale it rolls always for the whole group! So when you roll a miss, all members of your warband will succumb to fear...
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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and if the model is on wait you force him lose a that wait action (I think fear does that?).
NOPE! Fear won't affect your wait counter!
Berserking models are just THAT GOOD. That is why there are so few of them. If an Ogre moves within 4" of a squad of Dragonskull warriors and they fail their fear test they can on their very next activation declare berserk, remove the fear marker, and charge the Ogre. They are so worked up in their berserk frenzy that they have thrown caution to the wind.
Dragonskulls cause fear, so they are immune to fear... ;)
I still say that since you are Immune to Fear you do not suffer the effects of Fear any longer while Berserk. So you can charge the guy who got you afraid.
I fully agree, but will the berserker unit have one or two actions?
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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You are right, all model in a warband have to go berserk. BUT you are wrong, too. Whenever a unit/warband has to roll for morale it rolls always for the whole group! So when you roll a miss, all members of your warband will succumb to fear...
Sorry, I think you misunderstood me.
Of course the whole warband is affected by fear!
My 3 berserkers are under the effect of fear.
They activate and the first one declares berserk, the other two as they have not activated yet are also under fear but not yet berserk! So, only one mmber of the group of three is berserk!
As the whole unit has to be berserk to be immune to fear what can my first model do? It is not yet immune to fear, so it cannot charge the fear inducing model!
Please clear up this issue for me!
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My 3 berserkers are under the effect of fear.
They activate and the first one declares berserk, the other two as they have not activated yet are also under fear but not yet berserk! So, only one mmber of the group of three is berserk!
As the whole unit has to be berserk to be immune to fear what can my first model do? It is not yet immune to fear, so it cannot charge the fear inducing model!
Please clear up this issue for me!
Ok, now I understand your question. Before you move the first model of your warband you say, that they (the whole warband) will go berserk. At this point all of them are in berserker rage no matter if they are succumbed to fear or not. And then you move the first model...and so on and on and on...
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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Ah, now I see! ;D
Ok, I can live with that!
Thanks for the explanation...
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Bringin' it all back to "What's the point of the fear test at all?" Do they still lose that valuable action, only getting to go berserk for one action?
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Bringin' it all back to "What's the point of the fear test at all?" Do they still lose that valuable action, only getting to go berserk for one action?
I thought about this one some time now...I don't think that they loose an action. 'cause you state that you go berserk before the unit activates, and from that point on they are immune to fear...it is like another unit (individual) stops by and rallies the unit...with the positive check they would get the second action back as well... ;)
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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I agree with anomander, either all of the effects of fear apply (not being able to charge the fear inducing model and losing one action) or you are immune to fear (as seems to be the consensus now) while on berserk, and therefore do not suffer from fear. As going berserk does not require an action this is done before any models are moved, thus all actions are available to the berserk models.
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I guess the most concise way to phrase it would be "If a model with Berserk fails a fear test, they immediately have to go Berserk, or suffer the effects of Fear." Sound okay?
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I'm still undecided, y'all. Because if the fear test is a perfect, you would accept the hatred to gain the bonus, and the fumble would mean the models are so shaken they can't act. So I feel there has to be a penalty for failure; losing one action and HAVING to go Berserk, or success, remaining at your current DEF and being able to go Berserk when you want. It just seems balanced. Otherwise, why would you have to DECLARE you're going into a berserk state at all? You could have your unit go Berserk, knowing a fear causing model is approaching, and not have to make the roll, but getting to declare it after you've failed the save just seems cheesy. I'm hoping to somehow rope Thom into this discussion.
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Well, there could be reasons that they do not want to go Berserk. If they have already activated and there's an enemy unit nearby I wouldn't want the DEF penalty.
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This opens more questions. If they fumble on the fear check and can take NO actions, will Berserk trump that? And what happens if they fail and they're still on Wait? Aaarrgh!
@Coil and Everybody---thanks for all the discussion. Cheers.
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I'll take a crack at this. ;)
This opens more questions. If they fumble on the fear check and can take NO actions, will Berserk trump that? And what happens if they fail and they're still on Wait? Aaarrgh!
@Coil and Everybody---thanks for all the discussion. Cheers.
I would say yes berserk will trump even a 1 rolled on a fear check.
berserk takes no actions to use and once used fear has no effect.
As for the wait thing. All I would say is a model has the opition to go berserk when its activation comes up. models who are on wait can go berserk (if they pass LD when it applies). if you somehow were able to take their wait action away they cant go berserk But then why would you need or want to.
I dont have my rulebook in front of me. I dont know how FEAR affects WAIT. according to the one poster it doesnt but I cant confrim that.
these are just my thoughts
I would see what coil and wedge say for a "offical" answer.
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I dont have my rulebook in front of me. I dont know how FEAR affects WAIT. according to the one poster it doesnt but I cant confrim that.
Fear does not affect Wait. See page 77 last sentence of the top paragraph in the right column. :)
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It just feels asymmetrical--I understand you can't go berserk when panicked, I understand nothing is mentioned about fear--it's just a matter of what comes first. In this case the failed fear check has apparently little result other than to force the player to go berserk. I think some compromise is in order--losing one action and then going berserk.
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but by doing that you lessen the ablilites of a model whom you paid points for to fight off fear causeing models ( who happen more often then not to be huge honking beast).
Berserk vrs. fear is not a game ender. It is not as bad as you might think. It's just now models like the blood totem "might" not have such a "easy" time killing berserking units.
Like it was said before there are already flaws built into berserk, strong flaws. and fear still affects something like 85%(off the top my head) units in game with no chance to stop beyond passing the fear check.
In the end all it really does is give a new level of tactics to add to your game play.
play it out for yourself and see. Dalton (i believe thats his name) is a good player he'll find way to stop those pesky berserkers. ;)
josh I look forward to our next battle.(it was my first time fighting against dwarves)
the first one was loads of fun.
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Steve--I will DEFINITELY play my Wolf Clan Axe boys with no fear of a failed fear check against Dalton, believe me, but my rules persnickity-ness really stems from wanting to see this game edited and clarified for the future supplement. Here's a prime example--in the description of the Wolf Legion it reads they are skilled in "gorilla warfare"! They're not apes! It should be "guerrilla warfare". It's the grammar, spelling, punctuation, and ABOVE all else, the clarity of the rules. I've broken Thom's balls about this already; he could tell ya some stories!
Cheers.
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Here's a prime example--in the description of the Wolf Legion it reads they are skilled in "gorilla warfare"!
It seems you are not aware of the Ape Clan, which lost to the Wolves back in the dwarven civil war.
I've broken Thom's balls about this already; he could tell ya some stories!
Do we really want to know about you and Thom's balls? ;D
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you know a Ape Clan would rule.
and there totem would be like a chronopia version of King Kong
damn that would be kool.
lightly armed jungle dwarves. Man the wacky units one could come up with.
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Now Coil's breakin' my balls, and masherkings gone apes..t! Thanks for the laughs guys. Speaking of ball-breakin' I'm gettin' mine crushed here at the job. I would be in an insane asylum without y'all. Cheers.
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If you look in the army lists there are a lot more units that cause fear than units that can go berserk. Changing the rules to put another limitation on the fewer berserking models would be more detrimental than accepting the fact that a few berserking units just don’t care about fear when they start foaming at the mouth.
Bottom line: Berserk is a special ability that trumps the effects of fear when a player declares his unit is going berserk.
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thats prolly the best solution
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@Wedge--cool, that's the way I'll play it, but continuing the discussion/devil's advocacy, what happens if this same unit with Berserk suffers from a DREAD causing model that comes into range, and they fail their save?
This whole discussion has centered on the fear/dread causing model moving in first--I'd like to see where this goes.
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berserk has no power over dread
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Berserking models become immune to panic and fear while berserk. Models that are immune to fear treat dread as if it were fear. Using logic, models that are berserk and fail the dread (fear) check may have only 1 action and cannot charge the Dread causing model until they move out of the dread causing model's radius, rally, etc.
Good question.
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Here's where it gets tricky. If we assume (and we all know what that means) that berserk conveys immunity from Fear, but not Dread we find ourselves in the same situation as to which comes first, the failed save or the act of going berserk. If it's Dread, you now have to see if the model berserks giving it that thing under Dread for models immune to fear, or if they haven't berserked yet and they're like everybody else. Does the first failed save against Dread mean they can Berserk and behave like an ordinary model under the effects of Fear?
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Could you clarify that question a bit Josh? Are you asking what happens if a Berserker (who is not currently raging) fails a save vs Dread and then starts Berserk?
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That's the whole gist of it Coil, whether it's fear or dread. The model suddenly gets rushed by a fear or dread causing model. They fail their save. What happens next? Do they still lose one action but can then go berserk? Can they ignore a failed save altogether, making them essentially immune to fear?
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Ok.
1.
The non-raging Berserker has no immunities and rolls for Dread when the Soulflayer lands next to him. If he fails he suffers the effects of Dread as described on p.78. If he then starts his Berserk he will treat the Dread as Fear (meaning he still loses an Action but his CC and RC are not halved).
2. A currently raging Berserker enters a Dread radius. He''s Immune to Fear so he treats the Dread as Fear and rolls for it and suffers the consequences if he fails.
Does that answer it? Or are there more variants that I can't think of?
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Almost. Start with the most basic one. What happens when the unit is not currently berserk, and the Fear causing models rushes them, and they fail their fear test? Do they lose an action?
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Bottom line: Berserk is a special ability that trumps the effects of fear when a player declares his unit is going berserk.
loseing an action is a effect of fear.
berserk negates fear.
hense you dont lose the action. Even after you fail test and then go berserk its like fear never happen in the first place.
Yes I see that your rolled for fear first and are puzzled to see it just magically go away plus now the model is back to normal actions when under fear it just had lost one, but as it said earlier, in this case, Berserk is just that good.
thats how I read it
of course wait for wedge or coil to see what they say
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Why does it say you have to go Berserk before entering combat? Does this mean when I get charged, fail my save, and am getting clobbered by the Troll that I can't now go berserk?
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if you dont declare berserk before you charge you dont get the +4cc, def & +2st
in combat.
Berserk isnt a automatic SA
you have to declare it.
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I dig it, Steve, but say your model is charged by the Troll, fails his fear check and somehow survives the charge. Can that model go berserk, now that he's in close combat, or has he succumbed to fear and lost one action; I'm assuming the rest of the unit can go berserk and charge?
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If he is already in close combat he cannot enter Berserk mode. That's in the rule for Berserk.
I'll get back to you on Fear, Berserk and not already in CC. I'm discussing something with Wedge first. :)
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Thanks to all for participating in this dialogue. I've slapped everyone's karma/applaud button for indulging me in this rules pondering. ;D
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@masherking--Steve, to really fry our noodles, is the problem a catch-22? You can't charge the fear causing model on the failed fear roll, but you have to declare berserk before you charge, when you're fear-stricken and can't charge? Whoa, I've partied too hard in this life. I'm goin' cross-eyed!
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nope you anwsered your question
you declare berserk before you charge.
now fear has no effect.
your free to charge with all your actions
simiply berserk makes it like fear never happen...as long as you declare it.
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Well, I do declare! Steve, I'm going to play it this way. Thanks for all your help. I'm sure this is how the special ability was meant to work, and I'm just overanalytical. I think it would be good to tidy up this confusion with a line or two in the Cerulean Mists supplement, just to avoid any confusion. Have a good night. I'm headin' to my Thursday D&D game, when I'd rather be playin' Chronopia. Sigh.
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You're being a bit overanalytical Josh. But that's good since it forces us to examine things again and we all learn from it.
Now I command everyone to go home take a nice drink and sit down and read p.76-79 of the rulebook and ponder the beauty of the morale rules. :D
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Coil sounds like your recommending what I call Martini Reading. Fix yourself a nice strong ****tail of somekind, sit down and study until you can't focus on the words anymore and thats how you know you're done studying for the night. Its what got me through the required Fincial accounting courses in business school.
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I had a Finance book (Brealey Myers, Corporate Finance) that actually recommended that the reader go and make a nice stiff gin tonic to wind down after the chapter on Options.
Wedge and I agree that Berserk overrides Fear and that you get your full complement of Actions when you go Berserk from Fear.
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Pencils down! End of the test/discussion. I would like to thank you all again for clearing it up for me. Now I've got some fear causing models to destroy. Have a great weekend y'all. Cheers.