Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Pax on July 12, 2009, 10:49:12 AM
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Is the rule for 1 per army with grey ghost correct? Imperials got 1 forward observer and that's it with her. She reminds me more of a covert ops specialist among capitols who you could buy one per squad.
Also, what units are you able to use a forward observer to make speculative fire for? Mortars is given I suppose, but what about units or groups with indirect grenade launchers such as pathfinders? Could they be used with forward observers, and if so would it only be one model who fire or would it be that they all drop grenades?
I noticed there is some notes about forward observers being able to only do speculative fire with certain units that should be marked but there is no units listed anywhere that is valid.
thx :)
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Grey Ghost is correct. This is a limitation of the Imperial armies.
Forward Observers may call in fire from any troop equipped with an indirect fire weapon. However, each shot is an Action for the F.O. and the trooper(s) firing the weapon. Therefore, an F.O. can only do this as many times as it has Actions.
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very nice, thanks.
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How does that work with the Pathfinders?
Can he activate all of them or only one Pathfinder per action?
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Let me do a little research on this. There is the entry concerning Designated Artillery, yet I am unaware of models with this description in their profile.
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Here is the entry:
The designated Units a Forward Observer may spot for will be listed in its specific
profile. This may include such onboard artillery as the Hellfire, Scorpion, or the Unholy
P Carronade
The problem is the designated units are not listed in their profile. I believe they are limited to their own Army type.
Also explained in ranged combat is speculative fire:
Must have a forward observer etc.
IMHO (not official) I would say the Grey Ghost could be the FO for the pathfinders. Limited to the rules as they stand. The Grey Ghost would have to be unactivated and the Pathfinders would also have to be unactivated. Another obvious limitation would be the number of actions the grey ghost has - same as played with other FO's. I don't think the entire squad of pathfinders would be able to fire at a target. I would assume one of them would be allowed.
What is confusing is the rules entry below:
Once comrnunicatlon is established, the supporting Unit may now fire once per action spent by the Forward Observer. The
first salvo of shots is fired at a 4 RC. This penalty is in addition to any range penalties incurred by the firing weapon.
Each subsequent shot improves by +2, due to the Observer correcting the fire.
I believe this is for support artillery units (listed in each army type) and does not include the entire squad equipped with indirect fire weapons.
I believe the intent of the rules are this - the F.O. spots a nice juicy target and says (establishes commo) hey you over there with the grenade launcher - fire at the etc etc. It would be extremely difficult to spot for each member of the squad (plus very time consuming). It makes sense that a single member of the squad could fire (speculative) at the F.O.'s request.
Just my .02
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**** THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL ANSWER OR RULES CLARIFICATION - IT IS MERELY THE RANDOM THOUGHTS OF DAVE MCGEE - DO NOT TREAT AS OFFICIAL IN ANY WAY ****
Off the cuff, I would say that as long as all models of the unit are using the same target point that they would, each, be able to fire once per AC of the F.O.. In other words, the F.O. spots, and each model may use speculative fire to rain high explosives from on high, limited by the ROF of their weapon.
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I'm for sure not authorized to give correct answers but like it is stated in the rulebook.
1st
It works with indirect fire units.
2nd
And a unit is a whole squad.
3rd
And at the end of the combined fire actions the whole unit is marked as activated.
This all makes only sense for me if the whole squad can fire.
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I disagree with some points here with all due respect.
Coordinating indirect fire with a whole squad at the same time or even one at a time with each individual in the squad adjusting onto the target would be a lengthy time consuming affair. I would think that after a single member of the squad adjusted onto the target normally (with penalties etc) then the rest of the squad would be able to fire indirectly into the same area. I believe this would also have to follow the usual penalties for each individual in the squad. This would need to happen later in the game turn and without the benefit of the F.O. IMHO this would have to happen on subsequent activations not at the same activation.
Think about it, adjusting rounds onto a target is hard enough (and time consuming). Adjusting in subsequent rounds then takes additional time (actions by the F.O. as detailed in the rulebook) After the F.O. adjusts for one member of the pathfinders his actions are used up. When the F.O. uses mortars both the mortar section and the F.O. are marked activated. Even if there were 4 other mortar sections available they could only fire at the original coordinates detailed by the F.O. in the original call for fire. And in game terms would need another F.O. to even fire a round. These rounds could be adjusted in if the original F.O. if he had additional actions. He does not at that point he used them adjusting the first fire mission.
I understand there is real life and game rules/interpretations etc. Take it from me an old Artilleryman.
Typically an entire squad sized unit is not equipped with indirect fire weapons. The term unit in the rulebook I believe is intended to describe an actual support unit (mortar etc.) with indirect fire capabilities not an entire squad with grenade launchers.
Again, just a little passionate about indirect fire.
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With all due respect, you're opinions are valid and make sense, especially when trying to coordinate long-ranged artillery. That said, as a game mechanic, and when dealing with weapons which are affected by drift, I liken it more to the F.O. saying, "Fire over the southwest corner of that building - I see targets there!" rather than having everyone drop rounds on the exact latitude and longitude, simultaneously. It's quick, it's dirty and does not, necessarily, cause imbalance. Usually, the weapons in question already do little damage, are limtied to SR and MR, and are subject to reduced damage and really high To Hit Modifiers. Further, this is, really, the only way that indirect fire weapons would be able to be used, effectively; otherwise, everything would simply be direct-fire.
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I can see that happening - An F.O. contacting a squad with grenade launchers and giving a target description and location to them. The squad would then be activated to fire on the said location/description.
Now the big question is what kind of penalties (if any other than normal) occur for such a fire mission?
I want to clarify that telling a squad about a target is different than adjusting in rounds onto a target. Be it for one member or all members of the squad.
I believe this falls outside the printed rules in the rulebook.
Again, this is all IMHO.
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Tim, I get what you are saying, and maybe I am not explaining myself clearly enough. I am talking about short range (read: less drift due to decreased travel distance), compounded by concentrated fire (read: more rounds likely to hit target) in a squad-based, fluid, chaotic battlefield where most indirect fire weapons already have massive penalties (balanced out by their ability to fire indirectly).
Therefore, the existing penalties for the weapon combined with the penalties for speculative fire (pp. 57-58; Spotting), this issue of abuse should never even come into play.
OFFICIAL ANSWER
After researching this, I am confident that this is how it should work:
Step 1:
The F.O. must establish communications (LD Test). Failure indicates that the Action is wasted. Subsequent attempts may be made for the expenditure of 1 Action, each. Success indicates that communications have, indeed, been established, and the unit conducting speculative fire may fire once per Action per remaining AC of the F.O., including the Action during which communications were established (i.e.: If the F.O. is successful on the first Action, then all of their Actions (3, in most cases) may be used by the firing unit, assuming that they have at least an equal number of Actions remaining).
Step 2:
The firing unit conducts their Ranged Fire Actions with the following modifiers:
- The first salvo of shots is at -4 RC (in addition to any other modifiers, including the weapon).
- Subsequent shots improve by +2 RC per shot.
- If the first round is used as a "spotter round," then it does no damage (all models of the firing unit must perform this Action if it is chosen. Assume that they did nothing while the spotter round was evaluated or whatever). All subsequent shots to be preformed at +2 RC, cumulative.
Note: Firing models may only expend as many Actions as the F.O. has remaining, including the Action during which communications were established.
- After all attacks have been resolved, both the F.O. and the firing unit are marked as Activated for the Turn.
Example:
A Gray Ghost (Special Ability: Forward Observer) attempts to establish communication with a squad of four Pathfinders. The Gray Ghost's LD is 14. The player rolls a 15; failure. The player decides to attempt it, again. This time, a 7 is rolled; success! The Gray Ghost has established communications, and may, now, call in fire from the Pathfinders, targeting a point to which the Gray Ghost has LOS, and upon which the Pathfinders may legally fire. The Pathfinders may each fire, twice (the number of Actions that the F.O. has remaining, including the Action during which communicatin was established). They would not be able to fire with all of their Actions, nor would they be allowed to do anything else with their remaining Actions, as they have, now, been activated. Their first shots will be at -4 RC, in addition to any other modifiers (inluding the visibility of the target as viewed by the F.O.); their second shots would be at -2 RC.
Should the decision be made to spend the first AC as a "spotter round,", their only shots, then, would be taken at +2 RC, in addition to all other modifiers.
Does this clarify it? Obviously, the firing unit cannot have been activated in the turn prior to being used in such a way, unless the expended AC's are from Wait or Ambush, in which case the AC available for firing would be limited by their remaiing AC's, too. In other words, even if the F.O. has two Actions left, the Pathfinders would not be able to fire twice unless they, too, had two Actions on Wait (they do have Ambush, afterall). If only one Actionis available (either F.O. or Pathfinders), then I would highly recommend not firing the "spotter round." ;D
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Some quick numbers on this topic:
A Bauhaus Hussar F.O. attempts to call fire from a squad of Blitzer with two PGL Specs onto a Capitol Orca (part of a squad, but Target Priority applies, and, therefore, the closest must be targeted). The target is obscured by level 2 Smoke from the vantage point of the F.O., and is 15" away from the Blitzer PGL Specs. A wall stands between the Blitzers and the target, but the Blitzers and the target are outside the terrain shadow of the intervening wall.
Hussar Forward Observer
LD
10
Blitzer
RC
9
GL-357 Wrist-mounted Grenade Launcher
SR MR DM
-3 -4 7
Orca
AR SZ
23 3
The F.O. needs to roll an "10" or less (LD = Comm Roll) in order to establish communications.
Upon successfully communicating with the Blitzers, the Blitzers would, then, need to roll a "1" or less, if no spotting round was fired, first; a "5" or less (RC 9 - MR - Smoke + Correction Bonus = To Hit) if a spotter round is used. Subsequent shots would improve by +2 RC, cumulatively.
Obviously, there are other things to consider; Fumbles, Critical Hits, Damage Reduction due to drift, etc. Remember, at the very leastr, that this is a game which is meant to be fun and is meant to be played as such. Lawyering and arguments are going to happen, but the end consideration is: Does it make for a cool story, afterward? Can we sit around and reminisce about the time when your lowly corporal of a Hussar found themselves in a bad spot, but was able to raise another squad on the comm and rain fire from above onto the over-confident enemy? Yes? Then all is good.
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The official answer/ruling works great. I think the explanation above covers everything important. I believe only one action remains when they go on wait and a roll is needed to go off of wait to be able to fire the grenade launcher correct?
Thanks for clearing everything up and taking the time to read/understand my point of view on the subject.
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I believe only one action remains when they go on wait and a roll is needed to go off of wait to be able to fire the grenade launcher correct?
The Special Ability, Ambush, allows two Actions to be placed on Wait, and no roll is needed in order to use either of the the Actions.
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Got it. Forgot they had ambush. Makes them even better for indirect fire opportunities.
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This is a great way to use Forward Observers even in small armies, but I have a doubt.
The manual states that a Forward Observer can activate in the manner described by dmcgee1 "designated Artillery units". So, should we consider any Unit that includes one or more GL as an Artillery Unit?
I thought that, by definition, Artillery units were mortars, vehicles capable of Indirect Fire (none so far in UWZ), off-board cannons... and not units with portable grenade launchers.
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Please, reference pp.53-54, Rule 9.3.2 - Indirect Fire Without LOS (Speculative). Models with weapons capable of indirect fire use the same rules as for Fire Missions.
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Ok.
Now: assuming that a F.O. activates a GL specialist, what happens to the specialist's Unit comrades? Do they execute their actions immediately after the GL specialist has fired? Or may they be activated later, separately?
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As I understood it the entire squad of Pathfinders activates and uses their actions (however amny the FO has left) per the rulebook.
Not official but that is how I read it.
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I think the question of Pollo is regarding squads with one or two grenade launcher specialists without form fireteam.
We play it the following way:
First the specialists and the forward observer will act together like it is mentioned the posts before.
Afterwards the rest of the squad will follow in the normal way. They have the full number of actions because the grenade launcher specialists are acting as one model. They act simultaneous with the forward observer and the rest of the squad will act in normal order afterwards.
In this way we follow the rule that the whole unit is actived after the forward observer like it is mentioned in the rule book.
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According to the rulebook, the entire unit is marked activated upon the expenditure of all of the F.O.'s Actions; therefore, if the activated unit is not comprised entirely of models with indirect fire capability, the models without indirect fire are assumed to be "standing by" while the Speculative fire is performed. If the models have Ambush, two Actions may be placed on Wait. Otherwise, the only Action allowed by the models without indirect fire is to place an Action on Wait.
In other words, it is a decision that must be made by the player as to whether or not to commit the entire unit to the Fire Mission, or not. The F.O. cannot Give Orders to the unit; it may only Spot for Speculative Fire. The rest of the unit that is, subsequently, marked Activated is providing cover fire and awaiting the indirect fire-capable units to finish their "special action."
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The way we play is more or less a house rule we agreed to. Our house rules will be tested and discussed from time to time. The post before was only our interpretation how we play it in the moment.