Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Bulldog on January 12, 2006, 06:10:01 PM
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In CC it says the damage is the damage of the weapon and if you don't have a cc weapon you use the weapon that you have and apply the resulting CC penalty. Ok sounds good. However, take an Assault Marine, has no cc weapon so would use the assault carbine in CC. Apply the panalty it would be -3 to cc. But the damage is 11, so you mean to tell me the damage is the same from an assault carbine wether I shoot you with it or hit you over the head with it?!?
This doesn't make sense! Am I missing something here?
Thanks for your help
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I think that the theory is that you are shooting them in CC, not bashing them over the head with the barrell...
B.
Might be wrong though...
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You are infact shooting them with the Carbine in CC, which is why its so much more difficult to use.
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Does anyone have the link where Thom came in and clarified this one? I can't seem to dig it up and I can't remember whether it went towards non-cc weapons doing ST DAM in CC or whether ya just shot them. Either way, rifles suck in CC regardless of whether you're shooting someone or clubbing them with it.
-PFC joe
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Joe,
If I remeber the rule book, it specifically states that the only weapons that do not use STR in cc were sidearms (pistols and smgs). Some weapons have STR+X though in their profile.
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I remember the issue being resolved that you're shooting them, but I'm not 100%. One thing that I am 100% on is that you take the penalty in CC either way, there was a huge debate on the old forums between Grumple and some other folks on the ability to use the rifle as a club for CC:+0 and Str Damage. This was ruled against because it gave the troops more focused on ranged combat a somewhat plausible chance to win in CC, which severly reduced the, already limited, usefulness of CC troops. So Either way you take the weapons CC range penalty, as for damage I remember it being the full shooting damage. Anybody else want to weigh in on the issue?
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AFAIR at this moment the official word on clubbing is "no". Which is funny, since usually this means that the point difference between trooper focused on ranged combat, which has a chance of winning in CC (thus reducing the already limited usefulness of CC troops) and trooper, which has no chance at all is roughly 1 PC - the cost of a pistol. This also means, that some guys (including big bad monsters, like Immaculate Furies) have no chance of killing anybody in CC at all (as they have no cc-capable weapons, even ones with -4 modifier)
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I'm away from my book at the moment but I'm pretty sure immaculate furies have a natural attack. Which means they most definitely are useful in CC, albeit slightly less so than with their shotguns.
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Furies do not have natural attack.
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I would think that the penalty in CC for the rifles is because a soldier is trying to fire them at an enemy that is too close and is not able to get the gun into proper firing position...
B.
bad at shooting from the hip (or any way for that matter)...
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I think it is stated in the rulebook as ST, though it doesn't come out and say it.
Rule 8.5 state that if you are in CC, the only thing you can do is either break away, or strike with your weapon in CC. If you have no CC weapons, I guess all you can do is break away.
Rule 8.7.5 states that rifles are used for clubbing. Pistols can be used in pistol whipping or shot. It also states that the only stat for ranged weapons used is the CC statistic of the weapon (ie damage is not used).
Then in section 19.1 part 3 states that with the exception of sidearms (pistols and SMGs), ST is used as part of the damage in CC.
Unfortunately, there are a handful of models with shotguns and flamethrowers that are screwed by this ruling. As the CC value of their weapons is N/A (why it was decided shotguns cant be used in CC as a club I don't know since a rifle can, so Tom please enlighten me)
Note: I had penciled in the Faq into my rule book, and did not see any changes to these rules.
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Its still the case that models with shotguns and no CC weapon have to break away from CC if they want to fight. It worked very well in any of my games and never seen to set off the gamebalance in a bad way.
It shouldnt be forgotten that Shotguns are template Wepons wich dont need Dice rolled so they pretty deadly till you can catch em in cc (wich is a tactic i used against Darkslayers mercs after they tore big holes into me ;) )
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I nearly killed a Vulkan Battlesuit with a shotgun. :)
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Almost only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.
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Almost only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades.
don't forget thermonuclear devices...
B.
BOOM...
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Its still the case that models with shotguns and no CC weapon have to break away from CC if they want to fight. It worked very well in any of my games and never seen to set off the gamebalance in a bad way.
Well, depends who you're fighting with - sometimes breaking is not an option. Could somebody explain to me, how the big bad Fury can hurt a Mourning Wolf in CC?
And not being able to use shotgun as a club - c'mon, these weapons are usually much sturdier than assault rifles.
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Yeah its hartd to break away for the fury (actualy 12 + w20 against vs 14 + W20) I'd say the odds are very possible to do that. So the fury has two chances to roll and only needs 3 more than the Wolf, once its free it takes his template (i dont need make lame rolls^^) weapon and just blasts away the Wolf.
Easy enough or should i draw a scetch ;D ?
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And did you bother to read the rules for the chains of mourning wolves? You can't break from CC with them. Easy enough, or do I have to draw a sketch?
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There are other units too that have weapons that disallow breaking off from CC as well (Reaper of Souls, for one).
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LOL, ok the game is broken ^^
Do you guys actualy play sometimes or do you meet only for rulelaywering about some smaller flaws (wich can be easy overcome with tactics^^) ?
There will be always some flaws (ie Vulcan Army of death, but some are an advanatge so there isnt any complaining and some are not, so all world is crying ;D.
I think thats a funny behavior, no offence :-*
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LOL, ok the game is broken ^^
No it's not. There's just a glitch.
Do you guys actualy play sometimes ...
I play and enjoy playing.
I think thats a funny behavior, no offence :-*
None taken. Good for you if you see no problems in CC.
Is it somehow bad if flaws are uncovered and perhaps a less flawed approach is found out thru this process?
*shrugs*
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The point is there that its only a minor flaw and only affects a very small range of units (doubt anyone plays Furys vs Mourning wolves only). So its a tactical issue not to take on Mourning wolves with the furys and thats why i dont see a big probblem there, as i have lots of other Units to counter the Wolves and my Furys can fight something else meanwhile.
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LOL, ok the game is broken ^^
Do you guys actualy play sometimes or do you meet only for rulelaywering about some smaller flaws (wich can be easy overcome with tactics^^) ?
There will be always some flaws (ie Vulcan Army of death, but some are an advanatge so there isnt any complaining and some are not, so all world is crying ;D.
I think thats a funny behavior, no offence :-*
I totally agree. Sometimes, you have to overcome a perceived flaw with tactics. Being the "creator" of the Vulkan Army of Doom, I am fully aware of some of the flaws in the game, and the repercussions of those that view it as "broen."I have it from the man, himself, that the army is legal, but have shelved it and only use it when challenged.
That siad, if you allow your units to get into the proverbial pickle that is CC Hell, and they can't fight back, I guess they're gonna die. Bottom line - use the unit better. Forgive me for interjecting real-world, but if one army comes across another that is clearly inferion, and the inferior army refuses to capitulate or use better tactics, the superior army will, in all likelihood, steamroller the inferior army.
C'est la vie, c'est la muerte, c'est la guerre.
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Is it somehow bad if flaws are uncovered and perhaps a less flawed approach is found out thru this process?
*shrugs*
It is not, and, if a rule amendment is introduced, playtested, finalized and made official, then, I will play it as such. That is, truly, the purpose of healthy debate.
I don't happen to see it as you do, Behemoth, but others, obviously, do. Your opinions are no less, nor more, valid than anyone else's. I hope that we are not coming across in that they are.
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Do you guys actualy play sometimes or do you meet only for rulelaywering about some smaller flaws (wich can be easy overcome with tactics^^) ?
I play probably more often than most of you, guys. And with many more players, as there's a lot of WZ players around my place. This means, unfortunately, that I have a lot of opportunities to find out about such flaws. Unfortunately such small details can be very irritating.
Forgive me for interjecting real-world, but if one army comes across another that is clearly inferion, and the inferior army refuses to capitulate or use better tactics, the superior army will, in all likelihood, steamroller the inferior army.
Forgive me for interjecting real-world, but a shotgun is as good for hitting people on the head as an assault rifle is.
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But assaultrifles are used for shooting in CC ;), while there is no shotgun wich can do the same (i guess it's because of the template effect).
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The last time we had this discussion on the old forums, one of the guys from FAQ team said that only sidearms are used for shooting in CC and that it's the official interpretation. Even if it is not this way, a shotgun is similar enough to rifle to be used in CC if rifles can be - by the nature of its ammunition it even may be more efficient.
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Well as long as noone offical declares your interpretation the winner the current ruleset is the one wich counts ;D.
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Forgive me for interjecting real-world, but a shotgun is as good for hitting people on the head as an assault rifle is.
Too true - BONK! ;)
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Wheather it's with the butt of the shotgun,flamethrower , etc or with ones fist every model should be able to make a strength attack at the least in CC. Just my @-cents. :o :o :o
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I'd honestly like to see a blanket "if no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's" that would cover everything nicely.
but that's just what i would do.
(and i've missplaced a very important phone number... -doh! so it might be a little bit before i get confirmation on a few issues)
-PFC joe
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lost the phone number to the Office, huh?
B.
screwed without my day planner...
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nah that i have, lost my personal directory.
bother....
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I'd honestly like to see a blanket "if no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's" that would cover everything nicely.
Exactly. That's perfect. Would it be possible to introduce that to the full FAQ team and if accepted, to Thom as well, and see what comes out of it?
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I'd honestly like to see a blanket "if no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's" that would cover everything nicely.
Exactly. That's perfect. Would it be possible to introduce that to the full FAQ team and if accepted, to Thom as well, and see what comes out of it?
This was kicked around and I believe resolved on the old forums by the FAQ team. Unfortunatly the resolution wasn't posted in the FAQ before the old forum went down. If I remember correctly, it was decided that a model without a CC rated weapon, could make a basic CC attack with their base CC modified by appropriate factors (ie CC training), and do thier base ST as damage. However, I could just be remembering the discussion and not the resolution.
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Well this time i make my own FAQ and i update things wich are clarified into it, so we dont run around in circles everytime something happens to the forums ;)
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However, I could just be remembering the discussion and not the resolution.
I remember the discussion as well but not the resolution.
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yeah same here unfortunatly =/
"if no CC weapon, one handed firearms/smg's/melee weapons or natural Attack, then model may make unarmed CC attacks at -4 CC and ST DAM. Rifles, HMG's, two handed Ranged Combat weapons etc that have a CC stat make attacks at ST DAM. Bayonettes do full listed weapon damage plus any bonus's"
was the best I could come up with and some creative spackling to fill the memory gaps =)
-PFC joe
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IIRC, Stalker is correct. The only reason it sounds familiar is my faceless tried to punch some cultists in a PBEM game I played with Seamus and Coil. I remember rolling to hit and doing ST+0 damage.
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Thanks for all the input. The reason I brought it up is the rules specifically say you are clubbing with a gun in cc not shooting. I think PFC Joe has nailed it, this makes perfect sense. You can't fire a gun in cc, so you wouldn't get the guns DAM, however your strength would affect how hard you can club with it. Good job Joe, this works for me!