Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Silently on November 12, 2008, 07:42:23 PM
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Now that I have a copy of UWZ (thanks Topkick), I will be generating a few questions. Even after reading the FAQ and searching the forum, I am still a bit unclear about a few things. I'm primarily interested in Mishima, so many of my questions will spawn from that army. Starting with Close Combat with non-CC weapons, and the Yari Shogun Assault Rifle in particular.
First, exactly what is the CC damage of a non-CC weapon? I have seen two different answers in past forum posts. One says that the CC damage is the same as the ranged damage. The other says that CC damage is the Strength of the soldier, unless they have a bayonet, in which case it is the ranged damage plus the bayonet bonus. Can the correct answer be "official-ized" and put in the FAQ?
Second, The Yari Shogun Assault Rifle seems a little out-of-whack to me. The yari is like a super-bayonet. It completely removes the -4 CC penalty of the base rifle, and it does ST+d6 damage. This is much better than other bayonets (or much worse, depending on which way the first question above is answered.) It even does more damage than a katana. From a "flavor" point of view, it just seems strange to me that the lowly ashigaru grunt troops have a CC weapon that is as good as a samurai's katana.
Third, why does the Yari Shogun Assault Rifle shoot better than a standard Shogun at PB and SR ranges? I think the opposite should be true; stick a small spear on the end of a rifle and it should more unwieldy to shoot at closer ranges.
These are just some tihings that made me go "hmmm..." More questions to follow.
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I've never faced a Mishima Army with Ahsigaru and I'm not sure anyone takes them so this may be a conundrum. Hopefully I am wrong and someone will have an answer for you.
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I have a Mishima army - It doesn't get played nearly enough - but I have had similar puzzling moments around this - I'd be interested to hear the outcome.
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The answer to the CC question is simple; Ashigaru are peasant spearmen dating back to Feudal Japan. The rules writers were just trying to capture this fluff in the rules for its CC abilities. Mishima is not a shooty army, it is a stabby army. If you look at the figure itself (assuming it came with all of its parts) it should have the huge spear on the top. Why it is better than a katana, maybe it reflects the fact that once you are impaled, the user can also pull the trigger for some added love. Now why would they be stabbing when they could still be shooting? One, again they are a culture more comfortable in close combat and two as Miamoto Musashi said, "When swords are drawn, pistols become useless."
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perfect expenation. should be in the faq.
the speer/rifle combo is indeed stronger than a catana.
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Ok, I am cool with the yari damage part of it. The yari only does 1 more point of damage than the katana, and the katana provides a +2 CC attack bonus. Samurai will still be more dangerous in CC than Ashigaru, just because they will successfully hit more often.
I still don't understand why the yari makes the shogun shoot slightly better at PB and SR, worse at MD, and the same at LR. Logically it should be much worse at PB, slightly worse at SR, about the same at MR and LR. In the experience of all you Mishima players, what range does most of your shooting occur?
And this still leaves my first basic question unaswered. What is the CC damage of a non-CC weapon, with and without a bayonet-like attachment? I think this particular question should be covered in the FAQ. It really applies to all other armies.
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Range depends on terrain. Most games we play are fairly terrain heavy so the majority of shooting is MR or less with only select areas (or lanes of fire) having access to LR or more. I've only run Mishima a handful of times. Usually I take some heavy gun troops suppress open areas while I advance my CC troops rapidly under cover... On a typical 40k field where there's just a few terrain pieces you're just not going to hold your own against an opponent like Bauhaus who has awesome range and Armor or Capitol. At least that's what I've found.
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And this still leaves my first basic question unaswered. What is the CC damage of a non-CC weapon, with and without a bayonet-like attachment? I think this particular question should be covered in the FAQ. It really applies to all other armies.
It has, indeed, been answered in the FAQ. I will excerpt it, here:
Page 120 & 127: Ranged Weapons Used in Close Combat
Q: How can I tell if a weapon can be fired in close combat, verses being used like a club? What is the damage if I do use it like a club?
A: If the weapon has a modifier listed under its CC category, it may be used in close combat and does the listed amount of damage. It is assumed you would be using the weapon in the most effective manner, whether by shooting it or using it as a club.
If the weapon has a dash, it cannot be used at all. The wielder would not be able to use it to effectively attack in close combat. Models with no usable weapon and no close combat weapon may not fight in CC.
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And this still leaves my first basic question unaswered. What is the CC damage of a non-CC weapon, with and without a bayonet-like attachment? I think this particular question should be covered in the FAQ. It really applies to all other armies.
It has, indeed, been answered in the FAQ. I will excerpt it, here:
Page 120 & 127: Ranged Weapons Used in Close Combat
Q: How can I tell if a weapon can be fired in close combat, verses being used like a club? What is the damage if I do use it like a club?
A: If the weapon has a modifier listed under its CC category, it may be used in close combat and does the listed amount of damage. It is assumed you would be using the weapon in the most effective manner, whether by shooting it or using it as a club.
If the weapon has a dash, it cannot be used at all. The wielder would not be able to use it to effectively attack in close combat. Models with no usable weapon and no close combat weapon may not fight in CC.
The Damage the weapon does in combat is the Strength of the trooper using the weapon in CC as they are only ad-hoc clubs (Pg 127, under the Close Combat heading and pg 131, Section 21.3). The only firearms that use bullet dmg in CC are SIDEARM clss weapons (SMG's and below; pg 50-51, section 8.7.5 and page 127 Section 21 under Close Combat)
the modifier for the Yari in CC is correct in CC as it is considered a maneuverable enough weapon whirl the Shogun is not considered such.
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The Damage the weapon does in combat is the Strength of the trooper using the weapon in CC as they are only ad-hoc clubs (Pg 127, under the Close Combat heading and pg 131, Section 21.3). The only firearms that use bullet dmg in CC are SIDEARM clss weapons (SMG's and below; pg 50-51, section 8.7.5 and page 127 Section 21 under Close Combat)
the modifier for the Yari in CC is correct in CC as it is considered a maneuverable enough weapon whirl the Shogun is not considered such.
Then, the DAM for the Yari in CC is the Strength of the model, isn't it? So the same for other ranged weapons designed for using in CC, like Belzarach rifle or the Scythe of Semai HMG, right?
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yes, the S is 4+6 not 10+6 for a yari-shogun.
i assume same is true for eg. destroyers: 6+5 not 11+5
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yes, the S is 4+6 not 10+6 for a yari-shogun.
i assume same is true for eg. destroyers: 6+5 not 11+5
Yes.
I have had this discussion with others several times and have backed my assertions with page numbers and Prime.. I'm still waiting for page numbers for rebuttal. :)
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And this still leaves my first basic question unaswered. What is the CC damage of a non-CC weapon, with and without a bayonet-like attachment? I think this particular question should be covered in the FAQ. It really applies to all other armies.
It has, indeed, been answered in the FAQ. I will excerpt it, here:
Page 120 & 127: Ranged Weapons Used in Close Combat
Q: How can I tell if a weapon can be fired in close combat, verses being used like a club? What is the damage if I do use it like a club?
A: If the weapon has a modifier listed under its CC category, it may be used in close combat and does the listed amount of damage. It is assumed you would be using the weapon in the most effective manner, whether by shooting it or using it as a club.
If the weapon has a dash, it cannot be used at all. The wielder would not be able to use it to effectively attack in close combat. Models with no usable weapon and no close combat weapon may not fight in CC.
The Damage the weapon does in combat is the Strength of the trooper using the weapon in CC as they are only ad-hoc clubs (Pg 127, under the Close Combat heading and pg 131, Section 21.3). The only firearms that use bullet dmg in CC are SIDEARM clss weapons (SMG's and below; pg 50-51, section 8.7.5 and page 127 Section 21 under Close Combat)
the modifier for the Yari in CC is correct in CC as it is considered a maneuverable enough weapon whirl the Shogun is not considered such.
With all due respect to John's (Archer) interpretation of the rules, as written, he is has a compelling view. However, this has been ruled differently. Please, unless otherwise ruled upon, play it as it is FAQ'd. Obviously, you are free to play it as you see fit, but amongst players from other groups, the FAQ is the final arbiter.
As for rebuttal, I will not delve into that, here. The FAQ is the Official Ruling. If, in the future, it is changed, then I, too, will play it that way. Until then, I rely upon the FAQ.
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With all due respect to John's (Archer) interpretation of the rules, as written, he is has a compelling view. However, this has been ruled differently. Please, unless otherwise ruled upon, play it as it is FAQ'd. Obviously, you are free to play it as you see fit, but amongst players from other groups, the FAQ is the final arbiter.
As for rebuttal, I will not delve into that, here. The FAQ is the Official Ruling. If, in the future, it is changed, then I, too, will play it that way. Until then, I rely upon the FAQ.
OK, so we have two options. And the following question, in case we use the FAQ rule, if I attach a Sectioner Bayonet to the Kratach rifle of my Undead Legionnaires, the DAM of the weapon in CC would be 16 (10+6), right? That is good for my Dark Legion rosters, but doesn't it looks a little bit exessive? :o
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I, too, think that it is a bit excessive. However, the rules and FAQ are the game. Without them, this is a bunch of painted pewter being pushed around a table while arguments and other objects of varying masses are hurled at players over the rules...or something like that.
Suffice to say that until a rule is changed in the FAQ or through future publication, it is what it is. I cannot force anyone to play by the rule, but I can tell you what the rule is. Ultimately, you may agree with Archer, and play according to those rules, which, in my opinion, weaken weapons that have actual CC stats to mere fists.
The discussion, here, is not whether the rule is in need of change; rather, it is of what the actual rule is.
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Caronte - you raise thoughtful and provocative questions. Kudos and have some Karma for contributing.
D
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Thanks, I do not want to be provocative (at least not in a bad sense), just I am thinking as a Warzone player again and writing my doubts :D
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Free thinking is allowed here, Caronte. Please, continue to raise any issue that you feel is in need of clarification. You won't get flamed here. ;)
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Ooops, I did not mean to kick over a can of worms.
I think my (and possibly other folk's) confusion happened because I assumed that the FAQ section "Ranged Weapons used in Close Combat" was meant to clarify the rules in the book. Instead, the FAQ response is inteneded to completely replace most of the book rules, at least that is how I read dmcgee1's reply.
I think Archer is trying to pull together all the related but scattered text from the existing rule book and clarify that, while dmcgee1 is saying to use the FAQ rule instead. Is that correct in a nutshell?
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That, in a nutshell, is correct.
Let me state the following, for the record:
Archer's research is not without merit. John is an avid player, and has been involved with UWZ from it's inception, including playtesting (you'll find his name in the credits - check it!). I am not trying to overrule John, here. I am, merely, trying to keep everyone on the same page when it comes to playing the game as designed.
John has researched this particular question - a lot - and has had discussion with Thom on this subject. However, it is my stance that the rules should be played as written, with the FAQ as the final arbiter to any discrepancies, ambiguties and/or mistakes of omission/inclusion that have surfaced in the rules. John and I have discussed this - a lot - and have yet to reach concordance. This is not to day that John is wrong. I believe that the perfect answer lies somewhere in the middle, but I am convinced that the rules and the FAQ are there for a reason. That reason is to be able to provide a common set of rules for all to play.
This particular issue is, in my opinion, one of those that will continue to draw debate until such a time as new rules supercede those currently written. Until then, it is my opinion that the rule should be played as FAQ'd (which, by default, supercedes the rules).
You have not kicked over the proverbial worn can, rather, you asked for help, and got several viewpoints. You are free to play it as you see fit amongst your group, though, I recommend familiarity with the rules and the FAQ in the event you play/teach others from outside your group.
Silently (forgive the pun), continue to raise issues. Discussions like these have a way of making others' ears perk up and listen. This subject is important, your opinion valid, and has not, to my knowledge, rubbed anyone the wrong way.
Karma to you, bud. ;)
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What he said.
I have my disagreements with the rules and the FAQ in spots. Most are minor but the damage in CC for Rifles and larger is the one I have had the largest problem with- especially after I did the research to verify the very obtuse/obscure rule as to what it *should* say were it written in one place (*grumble grumble* bad editing *grumble grumble*)....
I am not saying I am correct all the time- far from it (too many editions in my brain to get it right all the time). Dave an I have had many a lively discussion on some parts of the rules and on some of the proposed units to see Sanctioned Release. Rare is the disagreement.... except on Shadow Walk. And even Thom beaned us on that one after we cornered him on a clarification for it. :)
The use of rifle dmg in CC is an earlier Edition rule- and yes, I did not like it then either. :)
As Dave has said, what the FAQ states is what's to be used on an official level. I can only hope the FAQ team revisits their ruling on this and discusses it again to either find the clarifiers for their current view on how it works or re-writes the FAQ ruling to represent the information as found in the book.
I have zero control/say over any deliberations as I'm not part of that very knowledgeable group of players; all I can legitimately say on this matter is "Guys... I think y'all screwed this one up."
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Well, I'm pinging you both with good karma for having such firmly held opposing opinions while keeping it civilized. I think I like this forum.
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Thanks, Silently.
John and I have been buds for a long time, now, both here and in the real world. We butt heads out there, too! However, I respect John's opinions, no matter how wrong they are ;D
Seriously, though, he is an all-round good guy, and deserves any kudos he gets. Also, John and I firmly believe that this forum is one of the best as far as people's freedom to discuss all manners of topics, here.
On top of that, we've got one heckuva a moderator crew around here.
Thanks for the "K's" - right back at ya! ;)
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Same goes for me with regards to Dave- no matter what I think he's smoking. ;)
thanks for the Karma though....