Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Chronopia => Open Discussion => Topic started by: joshuaslater on July 29, 2008, 07:08:44 AM
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These are from the Old Silverback, but he wants everyone to playtest this before it's set in stone. This thread will be only for playtest notes, so please keep the chatter down to a minimum. I have a pdf but can't get it to stick to the forum, so I'll be sending it to all and sundry who are more computer savvy than I am to help. In the meantime, enjoy the model, and have fun.
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x284/joshuaslater/Charnelgolem005.jpg)
CC:13 RC:8 PW:0 LD:8 AC:3 WD:3 ST:6 MV:3 AR:22 DEF:0 SZ:3 CT:90
Special Rules: Immune to Hand-Held Missile Weapons, Cannot Run, Cause Revulsion*, Writhing Tendrils (4)**, Absorption***
Equipment: Bone Tooth Hammer, ST +8 for a total of 14
Requirements: A single Charnel Golem may be included in a Devout Force with a Warped Lord. Forces with a Visceramancer may have many.
Notes:
*CAUSE REVULSION:
Many creatures intimidate their opponents with showy displays of bravado or menace, while others rely on cunning or deception. Then there are those creatures that are so alien and so completely unnatural that many beings have the innate good sense to stay away from them entirely. While a Charnel Golem causes Fear in Mortal Opponents (as per the standard rules), it imposes a penalty to LD tests for Beasts of -4.
**WRITHING TENDRILS (4)
Moving about on a mass of squirming intestine and animated flesh, the Charnel Golem's undulating method of movement is more than just a source of conveyance or revulsion.
Any model moving to attack the Charnel Golem in close combat loses their charge bonus as the writhing mass of flesh forces their balance into question and assaults those warriors with viciously sharp barbs, corrosive eruptions and random bone shards.
Additionally, an attacking models CC score is reduced by 4 while their DEF adjustment is increased by 4 as they fight to get to the core of the creature.
***ABSORPTION
Models killed by a Charnel Golem are absorbed by it if the Golem spends one action to assimilate the fallen flesh into its own mass. It does not matter how many foes a Charnel Golem kills in a turn, whether it is one model or three, if they are within three inches of the Golem they are all absorbed with the cost of one action. A Golem must do this either on the same turn it has killed its foes or on the first action of its next turn.
Once assimilated, the Charnel Golem essentially regenerates its wounds. If it absorbs more than its maximum 3 wounds, keep a six-sided die on hand and keep track of the extra flesh and bone mass it has stored. If it absorbs six wounds above its basic 3, the Golem splits into two Charnel Golems.
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Interesting. I see a couple of things, but I'll get back to that later tonight.
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I've fielded this model before, and it is really fun to have on the board. I've seen it crap out and do poorly like any individual on a bad day, and I've seen it kick butt when played tactically and with some luck. Run it a few times, and really kick the tires. That is the point of this being posted as it is.
Please put the model on the board and see how it performs before jumping to conclusions.
P.S. It really plays as disgusting as it looks. :P
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I like it at first glance, will need further review. Only thing that sticks out in my brain at this point is that the rules need to state what type of creature it is (Undead, Infernal, etc) for spells/abilities that affect certain creature types.
SP
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A couple things jump out at me at first glance and asked Jason to run his Devout in our play test. I intend to run it as printed to see if the problems are really there and then if necessary tweak it a bit. When do you want the results? We don't get together as often as some groups and want to make sure we get our response back in time.
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What size force do you want to playtest this in, Big Bro? Figuring on the 800-1000 point range.
SP
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What size force do you want to playtest this in, Big Bro? Figuring on the 800-1000 point range.
SP
You set the pace. Make a force that incorporates it and let me know the points. We will match it. That way you can build a force tht incorporates it without making it too much or too little a focal point. After the initial test we can adjust point costs up and down to vary test conditions. We may even try and pry out the stats for a Viscreamancer to see how multiple Charnels effect play.
Viscreamancer - You didn't think I'd miss that little teaser did ya Josh? ;D
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Also, may need to clarify the "may have many" in the Requirements section. Yes I know we don't have the Visceramancer yet but that needs to be worded a little better. The way I read that, a force with a Viceramancer may include a Charnel Golem for each Individual spot in the roster.
SP
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This is exactly why Thom okayed me to post this. It really needs to have the tires kicked. Go for multiple point totals, run battles, do whatever it takes guys, as this is now on.
As for the Visceramancer; I don't have anything on that, I promise. This version of the Charnel Golem was actually handed to me a while ago, and finally is here. I've played it a few times, think it's a very cool idea, and want it to be done right. Thom already knows he will have to tweak it, so do what you guys do best. Rock some Chronopia.
Archer faced this thing once at his place, in what is becoming a rare victory for Slater over him. He seems to have mastered Chronopia and has handed me many defeats. Sigh.
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Just a few questions to start.
*CAUSE REVULSION:
While a Charnel Golem causes Fear in Mortal Opponents (as per the standard rules), it imposes a penalty to LD tests for Beasts of -4.
What models are Beasts? Any current ones? Maybe stick with one of the current abilities of Cause Fear/Panic/Dread/Horror instead?
**WRITHING TENDRILS (4)
Any model moving to attack the Charnel Golem in close combat loses their charge bonus as the writhing mass of flesh forces their balance into question and assaults those warriors with viciously sharp barbs, corrosive eruptions and random bone shards.
Additionally, an attacking models CC score is reduced by 4 while their DEF adjustment is increased by 4 as they fight to get to the core of the creature.
So it reduces the opponents CC by 4. Why not improve the baseline DEF instead? Is it because Thom wants to keep the relationship between DEF, CC and ARM?
The DEF penalty for enemies in CC with it could be replaced by increasing the CC score of the Golem instead since all enemies will be affected anyway.
***ABSORPTION
Models killed by a Charnel Golem are absorbed by it if the Golem spends one action to assimilate the fallen flesh into its own mass. It does not matter how many foes a Charnel Golem kills in a turn, whether it is one model or three, if they are within three inches of the Golem they are all absorbed with the cost of one action. A Golem must do this either on the same turn it has killed its foes or on the first action of its next turn.
Once assimilated, the Charnel Golem essentially regenerates its wounds. If it absorbs more than its maximum 3 wounds, keep a six-sided die on hand and keep track of the extra flesh and bone mass it has stored. If it absorbs six wounds above its basic 3, the Golem splits into two Charnel Golems.
So do you absorb the wounds of the slain model? E.q 3 if it has killed a Repulsar Knight?
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1. Beasts are things like War Dogs, War Hawks, etc.
2. The Tendrils have played well as written, and if changed to a higher DEF, would change out things like Feint.
3. This one as written is ambiguous and will need to be clarified!! I saw this coming too. Since the few times I've tested Ole Charney, it was only one wound models he actuallly brought down. We'll see how Thom answers this one.
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Number 3 could be interesting if he faces big models like Totems or perhaps an Abyss Crawler. An AC would give him enough tokens to split. Could be something to watch out for in the testing.
Wedge, you want to start up the old Cyberboard and give him a spin?
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**WRITHING TENDRILS (4)
Any model moving to attack the Charnel Golem in close combat loses their charge bonus as the writhing mass of flesh forces their balance into question and assaults those warriors with viciously sharp barbs, corrosive eruptions and random bone shards.
Additionally, an attacking models CC score is reduced by 4 while their DEF adjustment is increased by 4 as they fight to get to the core of the creature.
So it reduces the opponents CC by 4. Why not improve the baseline DEF instead? Is it because Thom wants to keep the relationship between DEF, CC and ARM?
The DEF penalty for enemies in CC with it could be replaced by increasing the CC score of the Golem instead since all enemies will be affected anyway.
That is a simple alternative. I like that. The point of the ability was to reduce the effective armour value as the model wades into CC with the CG and decrease the overall CC ability as well. That said, another option would be to buiild the adjustments into the Golem in reverse and apply them as bonus' to its DEF and CC. Perhaps built in is better?? Thoughts?
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Prime was here
Prime was here
All kidding aside, how are you sir?
Like the admendment to the rules also.
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What will that do to models with Feint???????
Is it one wound absorbed per dead model, or one wound for each wound of the dead multi-wound models?
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I personally like the Tendril rules as written. It's simple, easy to remember, and effective at relaying the text of the ability. I think that adding bonuses to it's CC, which is already respectable at 13, and a bonues to DEF, which stands at zero, would need it to be increased in points somewhat, as that would seem to make it a bit undercosted, and as previous posters mentioned it would bring up another issue with Feint. So I think the +4/-4 to the opponents DEF/CC is the better option, as it reflects the opponent getting worse, as opposed to the Golem getting better.
And, as the Absorption goes, as I read it, the Golem would absorb the original wounds of the model, so it would absorb all wounds of a multi-wound model. Powerful, yes, but not overly so, and it does have a bit of a precedent in Soul Consumption, as I recall.
Another thing that may be worth mentioning is whether or not the Golem, if it splits, can continue to split, and if the Golems that split off can themselves also split.
SP
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Having played it, the splitting is great, but it will really only happen if you play the Golem and it's supporting units correctly, and have a bit of luck. It should be able to split as often as it can, if the Devout player gets that fortunate.
Even with a -4 to the CC and +4 to the Def of the attackers, one Deathseeker can still take this out in one turn, or a squad can do likewise. I've found it to be costed pretty accurate, and like the Tendrils as written.
I haven't played it enough yet to decide on the absorption.
The model is as disgusting as it looks. I can barely bring myself to touch it to move it!! Yuck.
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I am really looking forward to playtesting this one. Looks very interesting, and dangerous. 8)
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Enjoy it!! I'm just happy to have finally convinced Thom to post the dang thing. Please post your feedback from your playtesting here, and always feel free to post battle report pics too!!
I know some of you bought the model and may have even painted it, so I'd like to see what you do with this one. Yuck.
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how much does this thing cost? the devout already have great individuals, this thing is terrfiying, come one, lets balance this out
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More importantly-where is there a picture of this Chuthloid nastybad?
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More importantly-where is there a picture of this Chuthloid nastybad?
http://www.kerlin.de/chronopia/img/galerie/greens/DVT-G1.jpg
SP
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More importantly-where is there a picture of this Chuthloid nastybad?
http://www.kerlin.de/chronopia/img/galerie/greens/DVT-G1.jpg
SP
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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how much does this thing cost? the devout already have great individuals, this thing is terrfiying, come one, lets balance this out
90 points.
SP
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Thom was telling me the intent of the absorption, so I'll share with you some of his thoughts, until he chimes in after reading everyone's playtesting notes.
The intent of the absorption is not to be abused by having the Golem and a unit of Devout Swordsmen bring down a Dark Tusk Totem, only to have the Golem deliver the killing blow and then absorb five wounds of Totem. That would be cheesy!! So the thinking is that if the Charnel Golem kills a model, it gets one wound from taking the flesh, bones, guts, and essence of the victim. Thom will explain better later.
We don't want the absorption to be so over the top as to make this model broken, hence the thread.
Now get Charnelizing, and report back. I'm scheduling a game with Dodger this week to really kick the tires on it. I have to remember to take some pics!!
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More importantly-where is there a picture of this Chuthloid nastybad?
http://www.kerlin.de/chronopia/img/galerie/greens/DVT-G1.jpg
SP
Itīs a old version.
This is the Charnel Golem Version where goes in production :
(http://www.chronopia-deutschland.de/1/news/preview/cg02.jpg)
Greetings,
Coki
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Playtesting pdf sent to you, Coki.
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Playtesting pdf sent to you, Coki.
I didn't have a mail :(
Coki
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I just sent it again, hopefully it takes!! Post here if it's okay. ;D
Joshua
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if i charge it from the air with a flier, is their still the charge penalty? i.e. no charge bonus?
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if i charge it from the air with a flier, is their still the charge penalty? i.e. no charge bonus?
The way it reads, yes. I agree with that, as the tendrils are assumed to be 3-dimensional, writhing and wriggling in all directions.
Sick, icky, and disgusting...ain't he the cutest thing...I will love him and pet him and squeeze him and name him George and stroke his little tendrils....
SP
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if i charge it from the air with a flier, is their still the charge penalty? i.e. no charge bonus?
The way it reads, yes. I agree with that, as the tendrils are assumed to be 3-dimensional, writhing and wriggling in all directions.
Sick, icky, and disgusting...ain't he the cutest thing...I will love him and pet him and squeeze him and name him George and stroke his little tendrils....
SP
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Southpaw, I almost hit the smite button on that!! You and Ole Charney are gettin' a little too close for comfort; this ain't the Spinespur forum!!
ROTFLMAO!!
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ok, i hope i didnt miss it, but how big is this thing? Dog I guess ill just have to hover and through javelins at ya. this is the last thing I need another big beastie to deal with from the devout. it will be fun, terrifying but fun. if we find any weaknesses we will be sure to share it, maybe dog will break it out in a couple weeks when we play. ill start searching my armies now for something to counter it with.
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Well it's immune to most missiles, so you'll have to find some brave squad or steadfast individual to bring this beastie down. It can be done.
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Well it's immune to most missiles, so you'll have to find some brave squad or steadfast individual to bring this beastie down. It can be done.
right, but handheld missles are defined as bow, crossbow, handheld crossbow, composite bow, slings etc. not thrown weapons like spears and javelins correct? at least that is how i have played it. i need to bring my book back up to the office
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I'm not entirely up to speed on this either, so I'm goin' with my gut, so I'll have to go back to the FAQ too. ::)
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From the prisons they came. The worst cutthroats and criminals of the mighty Emperor's forces; Ogres, Orcs, and a single Goblin - Achmed Jah Maggotamon. Twelve was their number, a number derived from the prophecies of the Samura; the inner circle of of the Alchemist's Guild. Lead by one of the most ruthless and astute of the Emperor's Deathseekers - Reichman al Jafar. Given the promise of a pardon for their crimes, these twelve along with Reichman al Jafar are tasked with killing the abomination of rotting flesh that threatens the alliance against the encroaching darkness.
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Damn you Hal!! That's great stuff!! Applaud button, activate!!
P.S. I hope I didn't come off too strong with the comment on keeping the chatter down; please share the playtesting in any way you see fit, fluff, pics, etc.
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I just sent it again, hopefully it takes!! Post here if it's okay. ;D
Joshua
thx. Is online:
-> http://www.chronopiaworld.com/einheit.php?id=39
Greetings,
Coki
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Yes!! Enjoy, and thanks!!
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Archer faced this thing once at his place, in what is becoming a rare victory for Slater over him. He seems to have mastered Chronopia and has handed me many defeats. Sigh.
I **thought** I recognized that @#$%^&@#$!! model. The Magister has decreed that any enemy commander caught using said model in his army will be used as a practice pell for the Macemen....
Or a target dummy for the X-Bowmen.
Really.
As for lately, dude... I've merely found where my ju-ju went since I've lost the last two UWZ games I've played. And thats kinda nice; I have long been a Chrono doormat with my Firstborn, with most of my wins coming with a borrowed SoK army until recently.
Last game, two things happened- 1 was I made you blink... and numbah 2 was you did not go for the throat in the right fashion. But that takes practice with that army.... I know how I would have whupped on me with that army of yours and it would have taken three turns.
Yep, I am worried about that Devout list. Very Worried.
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As for facing this thing... I suspect it will require some very steadfast troops.
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As with all devout, its not the warbands that you got to worry about, its the individuals tht will make or break ya.
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O.K., what all can the charnal golem absorb. I mean, I don't really see it being able to absorb an Adamanite Golem, or anything else that is not flesh and bone. Speaking of bone, what about Risen? Is there enough there to absorb? What if the creature is classified as elemental? I assume that those models don't count. This would go a long way to balancing this very cool and very deadly power.
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right i would assume that mortal, blessed and beasts can be absorbed, but that would be the limit. regarding an earlier post, the repeating crossbow in the war torkha does less damage than a heavy crossbow so i would assume it is classified as a handheld weapon? the only reason it is bigger is due to the greater rate of fire, not power or distance
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ok, how would the following situations be affected by the golem
a leap
a ram attack
a trample
i would assume they all would go off as they are resolved first, but i want to be sure. not trying to be a pain here guys
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Keep the feedback coming!! You're not being a pain.
1. Leap: this would still be the same as any other model, but your CC is reduced as you leap through all the guts!! That's easy enough without turning this model into something complicated like an LD test or whatnot. The mod to the CC and DEF of the attackers kinda covers the flavor without trumping special abilities.
2. Ram Attack: Same as Leap. The negative to the CC reflects trying to bullrush through animated intestines and bone shards.
3. Trample. As long as the Trampling model goes over the base of Ole Charney, it can be trampled.
4. As for the absorption. Risen, no. Undead of any kind, no. Golems, enchanted models like Dream Warriors, I'd say no. It has to be mortal, or a beast, or a Blessed creature like a Totem, something with flesh and blood. The Charnel Golem may atack mortal Devout models if you're desparate!!
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is the devout player still have to contend with the limits on individuals i.e.
my charny kills and devours a nice delicious large warband of militia, now it can start popin out,
so then there are 2, etc. how many can he create, is he only bound by the rule for individs when purchasing and not thereafter? i assume this is the rule
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When building your Devout army with a Charnel Golem, you currently may start with only one as long as you have a Warped Lord in your force. When we see the Visceramancer, you may take more than one, but the build still conforms to the one individual to one squad ratio that we know and love.
Now for absorption, Ole Charny must kill six of those militia, and take an action each turn to absorb the two it kills each turn, to get that six sided die up to the number six of wounds absorbed. After that, it will split into two Golems, both starting at 3 wounds.
It is possible for the Charnel Golem to split into two on a really good day, but remember, it only absorbs models it kills itself. It can't deliver the death blow to a Totem that's been wounded by a squad first, and then absorb five wounds.
Also, the numbers absorbed may differ from what I just wrote, as the Golem may spend an action at the beginning of the turn to absorb, as laid out in the original post/pdf.
For those wanting the playtesting pdf, let me know here, and I'll shoot you a copy, or just go on over to Coki's Chronopia World and print yo'self a copy.
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Played a game with the Charnel Golem with myself, Topkick, and Coldthunder. My Devout vs their Obsidian Elves, 800 pts per side.
As they were reviewing his stats for their army list, they immediately noticed a blaring weak point in the Golem, a weakness I noticed which I was hoping they would overlook: it's below-average LD of 8.
That being the case the Golem is extremely vulernerable to LD-based saves and spells....Chasm...in this case....poor Golem never knew what hit him.
So, that being the case, while the CC and related aspects and abilities are nice, it does have a weakness, and it's a big one.
SP
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Well, damn, I was hoping Troy and I were the only ones who noticed that. Yes, it is a glaring weakness. The balancing issue seems to be less and less of a problem.
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:D Told ya it wasn't invincible. That LD also translates into a balancing factor for when the Deathseeker charges Old Charney on wait. The opposed roll is %40 in the favor of the Deathseeker, and even with the loss of the charge bonus, ferocity, and four to the CC, it still can take out the Golem.
Keep kickin' the tires, er, guts!!
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Played a game with the Charnel Golem with myself, Topkick, and Coldthunder. My Devout vs their Obsidian Elves, 800 pts per side.
...That being the case the Golem is extremely vulernerable to LD-based saves and spells....Chasm...in this case....poor Golem never knew what hit him...
SP
Golem fall in a hole - poor lil golem ;) ;D
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Must get a hold of Jeff Dodge. He's been mackin' lately, and I applaud him for it, but if I can get a game in with him, even with the text messaging blowin' up, it's still better than no playtesting.
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Dang!! Ole Charney had a good night last night, and almost split!!!!! Lost the game to the Firstborn but I have to say it was a hell of a good time. The LD of 8 is the balancing factor in this model. It was the only thing left on the board and had no chance beating the FB's LD of 16 for initiative. Sigh.
I'm diggin' it more and more.
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Dang!! Ole Charney had a good night last night, and almost split!!!!! Lost the game to the Firstborn but I have to say it was a hell of a good time. The LD of 8 is the balancing factor in this model. It was the only thing left on the board and had no chance beating the FB's LD of 16 for initiative. Sigh.
I'm diggin' it more and more.
Ah ha.... I suppose this means I need to come down again and face it once more. Or you jack someone's car and come up here. Need to put down some Devout once more...
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I need to get the Devout back out as well. Been having fun with dwarves and elves. Its the curse of TONS O' PEWTER. Way too many armies and not enough time.
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Ach!! It was just Ole Charney left on the board last week, and if he split, that would've been the game. I have to make sure I played everything correctly, but it was still a blast.
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Where does this model stand in the great big Chronopia scheme of things? Did it make the cut and is "official"? If so, where do I go to find a copy of the model that is used in the original post?
Any update would be greatly appreciated.
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It's as official as Thom created it, and I think he sculpted it. As for obtaining a copy, that could be tough, but I could steer you toward some proxies.
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Sweet...I'm definately interested in some proxies for it so lay'em on me.