Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Open Discussion => Topic started by: Joe Kool on July 20, 2008, 10:09:29 PM
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I'm finally diggin' into my UWZ rulebook looking at the various armies. I've decided to start rebuilding/finishing my Capitol forces as my first corp army. I know there is always change from one edition to the next but I am baffled by the Purple Shark changes when compared to the Great Grey.
In second edition the Purple shark had more armor and had a second MG to differentiate if from the Great Grey Plus the passenger could drop grenades as they flew over. Now with UWZ the Purple Shark lost it’s second MG and the passenger is virtually useless plus the Great Grey got more armor. :o
Is there any reason to take a Purple Shark over a Great Grey in UWZ? :-\
Also is there a reason that they aren’t purchased in squads anymore? I’m curious to see if anyone knows why this was changed? ???
Makes me wish I hadn’t picked up 2 boxes of Purple Sharks during second. (well at least I really like the model) Looks like I probably need to hunt down a couple of Great Greys.
Edit: I'm not trying to whine about this; I just wasn't around to gleen any insight when UWZ came out.
Edit 2: I changed the title of the thread.
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Ok I’d like to propose this house rule for the Purple Shark to get some feedback.
First off raise the Purple Sharks pilots stat line to equal that of the Great Grey giving it a base cost of 65 like the Great Grey.
Then add a linked second M-99 MHMG for 15 additional points. Making the base cost of the Purple Shark 80 points before passengers.
Add this new special rule:
The Purple Shark benefits having greater target saturation due to the added Volume of fire added by the linked VHMG.
A Purple Shark adds a +1 bonus to each range band for its Rate of fire and Accuracy.
I’d also propose to add a 4th passenger.
The Grenadier he has the same stat line and points as the Gunners mate.
Add AP grenades in addition to his other equipment.
Change the Special rule to:
A Grenadier is a Heavy Infantry trooper that has been trained to perform a bombing run from the back of the Purple Shark as they pass over enemy troops.
Once during an activation the Grenadier may drop an AP grenade on one enemy squad that has been passed over by the flight path of the Purple Shark.
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Anything else you'd like to do the sharks. I think someone should have bought greys and sharks in 2e but perceived the greys weren't worth the buy and now that he owns shark models is disappointed and likes greys but want his sharks to be worth what he thinks and capable of what he wants them to do.
Put this suggestion in the big box of Future things to Change box. The wish fairy will come by and collect your suggestions. Thank you.
Just play with your grey's and have a greay day.
;)
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Damn and I am usually considered the harsh one around here. I do not as a general rule condone the altering of the rules but as I have said several times before what you do at your gaming table is your business.
Archer is one of the best number crunchers around the forum and he is open to alternative point costing. I suggest you either pM or watch for his response to this thread and go from there. Once you come up with something you are happy with, my advice is to playtest the changes in several scenarios and straight out battles and then replay them with the standard Purple Sharks. If the changes you advocate do not unbalance the games then go with them.
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Didn't mean to be harsh. I'll explain better... I suppose I'll add that I think the sharks are fine for this reason: you can stick what type of second rider you wish and each one has their own special thing they can do. That is the point of buying a shark over a grey. If you don't want that rider buy the grey but the shark was clearly the choice model in 2e and they wanted to make the grey worth taking. I personally did not own any greys in 2e but after UWZ came out just cuz I felt like it I found I wanted a couple of Greys just in case. I own 3 of each I think. They each serve a slightly different purpose.
I'm all for your changes but they would be house rules and if I lived by you i'd playtest them to see if they worked otherwise I'd say I like how the grey and shark turned on in UWZ.
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Topkick I replied to your PM but I don't know if my Inbox is working correctly so I'm posting here to say I did respond, please respond back in the Inbox. I am receiving your messages but I sent a reply to your first PM and I don't think you got it.
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Thanks for the clarification you should really read what you're gonna post before you submit it. Cause you came off as a total tool. ;)
Now on to your second response; I understand where you are coming from but I still disagree that the PS is fine as is. At the very least something is wonky with the points values.
Lets compare the Machines and then pilots.
The GG has a higher AR and may fly higher; this makes it harder to hit and damage. The GG's pilot has a one lower CC, 2 higher RC, 2 higher LD and one higher ST than the PS pilot. All of these changes and the GG is only 3 points more expensive; it just doesn't seem copacetic.
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I can tell you from my experience here and at my table. There is no real chance to change the system. Every coperation has a similar case. The imperial pathfinders, the bauhaus vulcanes, the mishima ronin samurai dragon hunter etc etc. Not balanced, too expensive, too weak, useless units in each coperation. To start this discussion at the table is like to open the box of pandorra. It gets endless and you have to change everythink.
No, the game is not perfect at all but if you stick with your useful units of capital you have an ass kicking army and you have a good chance to win. And over all it is somehow balanced between the coperations.
My advise: If the GG is better take him and forget about the old army list. Otherwise it gets just annoying for you.
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If you take the gunner's mate, then your RC is equal to the Grey, and you don't suffer the mechanical probems from going over your safe wounds.
That makes a Purple worth it in my estimation.
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If you take the gunner's mate, then your RC is equal to the Grey, and you don't suffer the mechanical probems from going over your safe wounds.
That makes a Purple worth it in my estimation.
I can attest to the fact that this works. Both Dodger and Aoi Cobalt use Purple Sharks to great effectiveness.
A hint on how to use them is to ensure you have more activations than your opponent. Fly into range shoot, shoot, shoot then fly out of harms way. Snipers can ruin their day unless you stay behind hard cover and out of sight.
When building any Capital army I always try to model my army after theirs. These two just seem to know how to play Capital.
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Thanks for all of the responses. I can understand the don't change anything work around the broken parts of the rules attitude. It does make it easier for anyone to play with anyone else they meet. I really do get that. ;)
We are playing a dead system that has no caretaker to look after it to correct any issues that may come up; lets keep this in perspective too. If we don't correct these issues who will?
Isn't this what was proposed in the Ultimate Ultimate Warzone thread?
Why should there be any useless/broken units in UWZ? I'm not saying the PS is either of these but we should look at the perceived problem units.
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You've actually touched on one of the purposes of this forum. That's why I encouraged you to playtest your ideas and suggested Archer as a good info source for making the numbers crunch nicely. There are several new units and rule changes that have been advanced and some are in playtest mode as I type this. While they will never acheive the status of the UWZ canon they will in time become an accepted extension of the rules. There are some who view the book as unassailable truth and some who see it as a guideline. I fall in the middle. I feel it could be possible to spend all our time playing the game as written but I also welcome rules interpretations and variances accepted to enhance scenarios.
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Thanks for the encouragement Top. I'll contact Archer if he doesn't respond here.
I will playtest these and use the standard rules in a bunch of different scenarios. I'll log my progress and findings.
If the rules were still in print I'd be cannon gamer because we could through feedback get things looked at by the design team. Outta print rules are a guideline when issues are found, but my group never arbitrarily changes any rules. We always playtest the heck out of any changes made; the last thing we want to do is break the game.
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Have a little karma Joe. That is my philosophy as well. Design everything to be balanced and then playtest it rigorously to insure it is balanced.
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Thanks Top, I keep forgettin' I'm still rather new here and my philosophy on games design is not known. ;D
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No problem.