Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Talaminiatures => Chronopia FAQ => Topic started by: Wedge on December 19, 2005, 10:48:08 AM
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Over a year ago on the previous forum there was a discussion which involved Thom and many other of the Chronopia "knowledgable" that hammered out a ruling concerning what weapons may sweep attack. I cannot locate among my personal files anything referring back to it, nor can I find the reference in the FAQ.
Having said all that, I do remember (unless I am getting old) that there were some proposed changes to the weapons that CAN perform a sweep. Part of the discussion emerged from someone complaining that Elf Axemen could sweep but their Stygian Axemen couldn't. Similarly, I interjected with, what about Viridian Lords and Hearthguard? Other players chimed in as well, and this prompted Thom to make an on the spot ruling which I have abided by since then. Unfortunately, I don't think it ever made its way into the FAQ.
My proposal is to revist this topic and discuss it further to make sure that this time a clarification (or definitive answer) is logged in the FAQ.
Here is my proposal:
All two handed bladed weapons without a damage multiplier should be allowed to sweep attack. This would include Two handed Swords, Battle Axes, reaver axes, chitin axes, etc. Obviously, the non-bladed two handed weapons cannot sweep, but they can do extra bludgeoning damage.
Would this proposal incur a point cost difference? I don't think it would. IMHO, it isn't that important of a change to warrant a point increase.
Thoughts? Comments? Anyone?
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That sounds reasonable. I'll go through the list of current 2-handed weapons, to see if this could possibly present a mechanic or rules problem with someone.
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Sweep is one of the most fun aspects of this game. I like your idea of opening it up. The penalty to each successive die should be balance enough.
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Yep, I think so, too. After going through all the weapons and army lists and such, I think allowing non-multiplier weapons to Sweep is perfectly fine.
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Fun to stack Berserk with sweep. Mwahahahaha. Cheers.
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One drawback though is that it would require changing something which is pretty clear in the book. Some weapons have Sweep, some don't.
I have a bit of an aversion to changing things that aren't errors or in need of clarification.
/The Purist
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One drawback though is that it would require changing something which is pretty clear in the book. Some weapons have Sweep, some don't.
I have a bit of an aversion to changing things that aren't errors or in need of clarification.
/The Purist
Yes, I do agree with you on that point. The old addage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", immediately comes to mind.
Though the original problem about Sweep, that, with models with seemingly identical weapons, one could Sweep, and the other could not, deserves some further discussion, I think, as their original concern does raise questions.
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My reason for expression concern was because of the recent PBEM game we are playing. My VL Champion did two successive sweep attacks and killed four Cursed in melee. Coil and I have been playing sweep this way and with others for a couple years now... based solely on response from Thom about the rule. He stated that all bladed two handed weapons can sweep (personal discussion at GenCon 03 in Indy). Post-convention I brought it up on the old forum and he replied to the positive about his previous statement at the convention.
I am bring it up again because I JUST noticed it wasn't in the FAQ. I don't want to cheat Anomander_Rake in the game by doing what I did so I brought it up again for clarity purposes.
Obviously, you know what my stance on the topic is... anyone else have input?
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Don't Worry! I don't feel cheated... would I've known the rule I would have thought about using my damn cursed the way I did...I didn't expect that 4 Cursed wouldn't be able to bring down some tree-hugging VL Champion... ;) But with my luck I should have known better...
By the Way...I don't feel that this rule is right the way you will do it. You say that all weapons without a dam multiplier can sweep, the others not...so first of all, why shouldn't x2-weapons sweep as well? Most guys using a two-handed sword should be strong enough to even sweep with a serrated or jagged edge...
On the other side what happens to those weapons used my individuals or warbands with the Killing Stroke special ability? Will they be able to sweep or not?
I think the idea to make all two-handed edged weapons sweep is ok, but it should be all, or nothing! The units should be equal...there is no sense why one axemen can do it, the other not...If it should be a problem to change this rule, than I would say that sweep should become a special ability for those units who now have weapons able to sweep...
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What about Blade Maidens (Killing Stroke and Two-handedswords) or Black Sisters for that matter (Two-handed swords, high CC and 3 actions)? Do we really want units like that Sweeping?
It is a balance issue and putting Sweep on a big nasty model would probably warrant a PC change. I believe one should be very careful about making such a change, since it might unbalance some units if one isn't careful.
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I gotta side wth Coil on this one. While some units might seem to be deprived giving Sweep to everyone will create the Uber-individuals and Death-units that plagued 1st ed Warzone. The point to remember is that Sweep is not a function of the weapon but a skill of the user. Anyone can swing a sword back and forth but a controlled swing that engages multiple enemies without negating the fighters defensive capability to a great extent. That reuires training - extensive training.
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You guys are right. Have a great Christmas. Cheers.
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Does the Vulture Talon Lord have sweep with a x2 weapon (Spear of Virtue, I think)?
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Does the Vulture Talon Lord have sweep with a x2 weapon (Spear of Virtue, I think)?
The Rules say no on this one...
If you play it the way Wedge does, I would even say no. The Spear is a polearm and nothing like a sword or axe that should be able to sweep. Something like halberd with an axe-shaped head, well, that would be a thing to discuss...
just my two cents...
Anomander Rake
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And thats why it is the best way to only play weapons with sweep wich have it in their stat's ;D
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I guess the biggest problem I have with the sweep ability is that a standard grunt troop like an elf axement can sweep and an "elite" troop like the Viridian Lords apparently cannot sweep. Let's be honest, how often have you had the chance to sweep with an elf axeman? That would require two or more opponents charging and not being able to kill a guy with 0 defense. I know it is possible, but it doesn't happen that often.
I still awake Thom's official reply.
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While some units might seem to be deprived giving Sweep to everyone will create the Uber-individuals and Death-units that plagued 1st ed Warzone.
What you mean you didn't like having a Mourning Wolf Chieftess with 10 MV, 6 WD and the ability to humble opponents with a mighty stare...Ok on second thought yeah it was the heroes that ruined 1st ed warzone.
I don't play chronopia, however since sweep is a factor in both Warzone and Chrono I thought I would weigh in on the issue. I say keep sweep as is, the reprocussions of a change are sweeping, (wow thats a bad, bad pun and I didn't even realize I'd made it until my final read through and edit). And I know situations where units that don't have sweep would be able to if they had such an ability comes up pretty frequently in my Warzone games.
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I don't know how much sense has got to write on a post of 4 years ago. Anyway, seen that the official answer still hasn't come, I give my opinion too.
Sweep is one of the funniest, maybe, but surely irrealistic game effects. It's something frightening and innatural. I appreciated the fact that very few units have got it. I use the untamed, and I can perfectly understand the disapointment in seeing the cursed able to sweep and the heartguard unable to do it, even if the warriors are alive, strong, cool and with great axes.
But you can easily solve the frustration playing the shadow tribe with an unholy champion, a line of 12 unlivings, and a warband of cursed as allied. Boosted by the unholy and sweeping everything.
I agree with the ones who think that "sweep" has to be considered a sort of ability of the troop rather than a charachteristic of the weapon.
In this second case, infact, a two-handed sword should be unable to sweep, as Wedge instead suggested, 'cause the sweeping effect is not due (in my opinion) to the cutting effect of a blade, but to the kinetik push of the weighted head of the weapon. That's why I could better imagine that a two-handed flail should have the sweep and a two-handed sword shouldn't.
In any case, I'm not Mr. Talamini nor a member of "dark simmetry" staff, so I think that, if they imagined a certain point cost for a unit they considered the effects of the sweep in this cost, and the addiction of a sweep to a unit who hasn't it should vary the cost of the unit of many points.
When I played my untamed in the first edition, my opponents always refused to use the climatic rules. After a lot of matches lost, I noticed my friends how my basic warriors had a PC very high if compared with their's, and we decided to reduce the PC of my tribal warriors of 3 points for every climatic ability they got, because, never using them, there was a value of unuseful ability which, on 1500 army points, led me to have 2/3 of the minis of my opponents on the field. PC of the units has it's sense because it considers everything of the unit's possibility.
Sweep is a very powerful effect. If you think that an elven axeman will rarely have the possibility to use it, well... maybe that's why he got it! The bone golem has it and i think it's a little exaggerated. Just really think to a Black sister champion with a sweep ability. In one very very lucky turn she could killl, with 15 in close combat skill (17 if considering the charge) and the secondary attack, up to 7-8 opponents not too much tough. I think that's what it happens when trying to justify the unreal with the "epic flavour", exageration leads from the nice to the ridiculous. With no offense.
Cheers to you all.
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I've never found sweep to be an issue. It rarely happens in a game. If the Elven Axeman is not brought down by four actions of the opposing player, assuming that unit activated first and is either in close combat, or within charge movement and then a second CC attack, then a sweep is not so unbalanced. If the Elven Axeman was able to do this sweep in combination with a charge, and break the rules by going in between models, then it would be broken.
I've not heard any fuss over sweep before, but that's my take on it.
Cheers.
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To more readily address your concerns, as Thom returns to the gaming world, sans the IP of someone else, it may be a good time to look closely at sweep.
It's been many, many games of Chronopia between the first post and now, and, in retrospect, I'm not of the opinion that changing the game mechanic would have made them more fun.