Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: warzoneD on January 17, 2008, 11:48:54 AM
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Does anyone know the rationale for having the negative modifiers for AR's at PB range?
We recently played an undergorund scenario assaulting a Mishima complex using dungeon tiles whrere most ranges never exceeded 12" and found ourselves often at a minus when firing.
It just seems odd that an M16 would be considered less accurate (or for that matter deadly) inside a hallway. Is this merely a game balance mechianic?
Thoughts?
D
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From my perspective- yes, using a normal Assault Rifle at ranges less than 20 feet is a rough thing, as its size gets in the way of fast accurate targeting in a CQB setting. It's one of the reasons why the switch to the M4, which at 10 inches shorter than the M16a2, is more usuable in such conditions.
As having used both in such environments for training/et al, I can see why the penalties for Assault Rifles.
If you look closer at the other rifles listed in the book, you will note that some of them are better than others and in looking at how the various weapons look, I can see the reasoning for said modifiers.
Shogun rifles look little more than glorified SMG's so their penalties to hit at range make sense.
M74 Carbine is supposed to be good at short range... which is repped in the stats. I think it should be better at PB but thats where the HMG trooper comes in... and they can have a few.
So from a game a rules perspective for me, they are fine. Your opinion may and will differ. :)
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I can only agree to Archer.
Assault Rifles are a bit harder to wield on close quarters. SMG´s are the choice for that. More flexibility and better movement possibilities.
And another thing is the weapons rebound.
To bring the Assault Rifle back to position fast after the first shot is harder than with an SMG which have close to none rebound.
As far as that I can follow the penalty to firing as realistic.
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Well I've fired both ARs and SMG's but I've never had proper training with them so I will have to defer to your expertise on this. :)
Thanks for the input.
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No sweat. CQB and tight confines *is* what MP-5's and uzis are for.
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Give me an 1911A1 and a K-Bar - thems a man's fightin tools ;D
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Desert Eagle (any caliber), AR-15 and a room-broom for me, thanks.
Hicks: "I keep this around for 'close encounters.'"
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Glock 9mm Hollow point and a neck-slung Hecker and Koch MP-5 (K). Clear the room and keep it clear! ;)
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When you have a disagreemenet on hardware you have to seek out the celebrity endorsements. ;D
AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m***** f***** in the room. Accept no substitutes.
- Samuel L. Jackson
Maybe not the best for clearing a room but are you gonna tell him? :o
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LMAF Top. You have WAYYYYY!!!!! too much time on your hands .. That was perfect!
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Ak-47. The Spray And Pray assault rifle. Got it...
For CQB, Shotguns are great. Its one of the reasons why the Navy still keeps them in inventory. Almost all Boarding teams have a pair. :) Heck, I think even the Marines use them. (Veez- verify this please?)
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All kidding aside CQB weapons, like everything else depend on the circumstances in which they will be used.
Shotguns
Shotguns are great and we always tried to include 1 or 2 in our EPW kit box. Anytime you are in close quarters, outnumbered and the survival of those in front of you doesn't matter too much a 12 guage sweeper is a good choice. It however shares some of the disavantages of the AR and in addition is labor intensive. By that I mean that it is most likely pump action which means you waste valuable seconds jacking in a round during a firefight.
SMG's
Given the high rate of fire and control when used as a burst fire weapon and the back up ability to sweep a room the SMG is the preferred weapon of CQB by most in the business of rooting out evil room by room. Uzi's and Mac's frankly don't have the accuracy for much beyond spray and pray and have fallen into disfavor when compared to the HK MP-5. The MP-5 combines some of the best aspects of an SMG with an AR and deserves its reputation.
Assault Rifles
These are meant for the battlefield and most do poorly in CQB. My reference to the AK was mostly a joke but if I had to pick an AR to do a building assault it would be the AK-47. It is smaller in size than most AR's and the 47 has better stopping power, using a 7.62mm round instead of the 5.54mm 5.45mm round (damn my dyslexic fingers) of the newer AK-74. I have never handled the newer M-4 and so cannot rate it.
Pistols
Frankly 9mm are not good for this type of combat. Hit a man with one and he may stay up long enough to punch your ticket. The 45 ACP is probably the best pistol for the job. It is proven, heavy enough to knock the target down and for a lefty a much better choice than a Desert Eagle. I have seen too many lefties chamber their thumb on an Desert Eagle. That open top slide allows the thumb to drift into the weapon. In fact I stopped looking at them years ago and Glocks are also not lefty friendly. The recessed buttons are hard for a lefty to find blind. The 1911A1 is easy to navigate by feel. My choice of the 9mm's is the Ruger P-85. It is ambidextrous, compact and reliable. I have fired rounds thru it that most other weapons refused to fire.
Knives
I may be a throwback but if you enter CQB without a good blade you are tempting the Reaper. I'm not talking about a bayonet or a folding utility knife. If you are going into combat take the time to find a combat knife. I carried 3 when I went to the field - a ghurka, an Air Force Survival knife and a K-Bar or other fighting knife. The fighting knife never came out of the sheath because I never had to kill someone. I don't use my guns as hammers, screwdrivers or eating utensils so why would I use my fighting knife for those tasks? The Ghurka cut small trees and brush (I know I am a sinner), the AF survival knife was for general utility work and the fighting knife was for killing if the need arose.
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Indeed....
MY two pence.
Shotguns
Most of the shotguns I see in military use are the shortbarrel Mossburg 12guage, at least with the Force Protection units I worked Fleet Week with. Short enough to get rapid target aquisition and yet large/ enough to use as a club if *absolutely* necessary. I carried one for a short while as well as a Beretta... But I have to say, everyone respects the shotgun- even drunk marines I had to deal with.
SMG
You summed it pretty well- not much out there is better for CQB than an SMG and the MP-5 series is aobut the best, though the H&K MP7 and the Knight Armament Company's new 6mm PDW are pretty nice for the role.
Assault Rifles
Lots of odd size weapons in this with the M-4 and the AK 74 leading the Size-War with the Isreali Tavor following up close behind. Really too long for true CQB, they can do the job for most work, though SMG-armed personell would be better if available. Granted, its an opinion but a fair one based on experience. :)
Knives
For me, I carried two- my issue bayonet and a Fairbarn-Sykes. One was for crowd-control and the other for quiet work/backup if needed (thankfully never was). I'm a firm believer of Shoot before Cut; if I gotta cut someone, it better be because I can't shoot him.
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Yep guys and again confirmative.
The silenced MP-5 with retractable "I don´t know what that thibk against your shoulder is calle din english" a laser öpointer and voila. There´s my choice.
Is wonderful for short ranges and is reliable for about 200m . Does nothing more than a silent -Plop- and no rebound.
And has a better stopping power with 9mm rounds compared to the newer Assault Rifles with 5.45 mm rounds.
OK on long ranges I would prefer an 7.62mm round Assault Rifle as a G3, but you can´t hace/carry everything can you?
And for clearing rooms, just throw a grenade or two in and wait 5 seconds ;-)
And Don´t do it in the 5th story of a building too often :o
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..."I don´t know what that thibk against your shoulder is calle din english" ...
The word you are seeking is, "stock."
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THX ;D
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Does anyone know the rationale for having the negative modifiers for AR's at PB range?
I happen to know the rationale since Saint and I worked quite a bit on the weapons section. The reason the AR is worse close in is that pistols, SMGs, machine pistols etc need a place to shine. So it is a play balance thing. The weapon types should be different.
On the topic of knives I quote Starship Troopers
[Ace is having difficulty with throwing knives]
Ace Levy: Sir, I don't understand. What goods' a knife in a nuke fight? All you have to do is press a button, sir.
Career Sergeant Zim: Put your hand on that wall trooper. PUT YOUR HAND ON THAT WALL!
[Zim throws a knife and hits Ace's hand pinning it to the wall]
Career Sergeant Zim: The enemy can not press a button... if you have disabled his hand. Medic!
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nice one Coil...
Another reason is for the simple fact that no matter how advanced we get with firearms, Bayonets are still issued for those times when it shooting is a bad idea.