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Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 05:07:29 AM

Title: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 05:07:29 AM
Can the Behemoth use its Giant Azoghar (a polearm) one-handed?  It matters, as the Decimator handgun is listed as a Sidearm, and the rules specifically state that a sidearm and a polearm may not be used simultaneously, thereby negating the use of one or the other for Secondary Attacks, unless specifically stated in the models' profile.

It is not listed, but one might assume that because the Behemoth has four arms, this may, in and of itself, render the rule moot.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Dragon62 on December 27, 2007, 06:24:28 AM
All Polearms require 2 hands to use as listed page 126, but the Behemoth has 4 arms and Secondary Attack. He may use both when in CC and snice the rule for SA only states in CC he could be 1 inch away away.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Veez on December 27, 2007, 06:39:42 AM
"but the Behemoth has 4 arms"

Isn't that cheating?
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Lopis on December 27, 2007, 06:47:25 AM
I want an extra Set of Machin-pistols and Punischer Swords for my Crucifiers..... :o
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 06:48:46 AM
Remeber, Behemoth actually has 4" reach (1" for Azoghar, and 3" of his own).
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Southpaw on December 27, 2007, 06:49:26 AM
I want an extra Set of Machin-pistols and Punischer Swords for my Crucifiers..... :o

Yeah me too, then maybe they wouldn't suck so hard.

SP
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Lopis on December 27, 2007, 07:06:20 AM

Since they have four arms also..... would be nice.

Lets make a poll  ;D

"Four arms, more weapons"

You have my vote !

So back to topic:

I donīt think he gets a secondary attack with the Handcannon.

The rules for sec. attacks apply normal. so if you canīt use another weapon than the primary one (which you canīt with the polearm whats covered by the rules -OK its covered for both hands and not for 4, but follow the reasoning through first- since nothing is otherwise stated) you get a sec. attack with the primary. In this case the Azoghar.

Other way round, if you use the Handcannon, you get a sec. attack with the Handcannon, since you canīt use the sidearm with the polearm; same reasoning as above.
Since the Behemoth has two weapons, you can choose what to do.
Two attacks with the handcannon or two with the azoghar.

I would advise the handcannon  ;)

OK, the pic implies he wields both at the same tiome and it looks pretty cool, but thatīs what I fish out of the rules..... :-\
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Archer on December 27, 2007, 08:51:07 AM
the Hand Cannon is a Sidearm, which may be used in CC either as Primary or Secondary attack.

  Teh reule about polearms needing two hands and sidearms only applies when the model does NOT have Secondary Attack.  And to be honest, the Secondary attack for a polearm trooper would likely be a second swing with the pole arm- unless the model initially attacked in CC is killed.  Then the SA using a sidearm would come into play... and to be honest, if you get SA'd by the Behomth's Cannon.... that would stink. :)
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Dragon62 on December 27, 2007, 08:59:41 AM
Yeah I miss the old Crucifier myself , when he had 2 CC/2 RC attacks per action, but that was then and this is know. ;D
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 11:33:06 AM
Two attacks with the handcannon or two with the azoghar.

I would advise the handcannon  ;)

Cannot be the Handcannon, twice, unless the Behemoth is in base contact with its edit [initial] target.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 11:35:54 AM
  Teh reule about polearms needing two hands and sidearms only applies when the model does NOT have Secondary Attack. 

 ???

Nowhere does it say that in the rules, that I see.  I like using my Behemoth's 2ndAtk as much as the next guy, but I am sure that the rules won't bend because of that line of logic.  Maybe because the Behemoth is SZ 6 and has four arms, but not just because he has Secondary Attack.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: jjdodger on December 27, 2007, 11:38:08 AM
cant be the polearm twice, either. You get 1 attack with each weapon. If you only have 1 weapon, then you may use it twice, otherwise, 2 attacks, 2 different weapons.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 11:39:06 AM
cant be the polearm twice, either. You get 1 attack with each weapon. If you only have 1 weapon, then you may use it twice, otherwise, 2 attacks, 2 different weapons.

If I cannot use the sidearm along with the polearm, then I only have one weapon.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: jjdodger on December 27, 2007, 11:47:46 AM
You have FISTS (natural attacks). You can use them as one attack, and then the gun as a secondary attack. Or, the pole arm as one, and the fists as a second! or any combination/order you want, as long as the pole arm and the gun are not used in the same action.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 11:59:07 AM
Natural Attacks are Special Abilities - not weapons.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: jjdodger on December 27, 2007, 12:17:33 PM
From "Close Combat"
"In Close Combat, the attacking model takes an action to
Strike an enemy model..."
"Close Combat ensues, It may now make a CC attack action."

From "Natural Attack"
"Whether a series of punches and kicks
or one mighty hamming blow, when a model spends an action
using these skills in an attempt to harm the enemy, the attack is
referred to as a Natural Attack."

Sounds like an attack to me! Same thing as charging in and swining the big ole pole arm, except its a fist the size of a volkwagen. If you successfully charge, you make make an attack action. Swinging a pole arm, or swining a fist, is still an "action".
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on December 27, 2007, 08:30:12 PM
I did not dispute the fact that it is an Attack AC - merely that a Natural Attack is not a "weapon" - primary nor secondary.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: warzoneD on January 02, 2008, 09:13:50 PM
If I may take a shot at this--- (NOTE: I rarely play Dark Legion and when I do it's usually Illian or Muaji-baby so I have no investment in the outcome of this argument...that being said...)

I think we're drifting a bit into semantics here.  Let's work backwards --

To me, the Natural Attack SA seems to be a catch-all for bites, claws, fists, etc.  While one could argue they are not literal weapons (i.e. gun, spear, etc), they are essentially just like combat weapons (i.e. a method by which you damage your opponent).  Therefore they would be subject to the same restrictions penalties etc. as any other "weapon" regarding the Secondary Attack SA.

In regards to the Behemoth - again the rules are a guideline and they can not cover every variable and I think we can all agree that in UWZ, as great a system as it is, there are one or two contradictions (hence the FAQ).   

While the rules state one can not use a pole arm and side arm at the same time - I don't think the four armed death machine Behemoth was who they had in mind when they wrote this one.  I suspect it was geared towards the average 2 armed trooper ("Only 2 arms!  Pathetic!" "How can you play a 12 string guitar?" Laughs the Behemoth).

Considering the Behemoth has four arms (whether he be 2x lefty or 2x righty) one would assume he would use two to wield his spear, and one to wield his side arm, suffering the same penalties for anyone firing a second weapon. 

Now, according to the secondary attack rules - the Behemoth could use both his spear (primary weapon) and his handcannon (secondary weapon) in 1 AC.  (Ouchy!  I know my brotherhood army is squirming right now). 

And I think this is where the problem may lie.  To me the issue is should the Decimator be a "side arm" - i.e. usable in CC.

If yes - then, sorry guys, the way I would read it (even if staring down the muzzle), it would be usable.
Also - , well there's no real need for that natural fist attack now is there?  When would you use it.

If no - then I agree that the secondary attack would instead be the fist.

I think the answer to this one may lie with the higher-ups sharing with us what their vision/intention was when desiging this big bad boy.

Hope I helped.

D

Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on January 03, 2008, 12:46:43 AM
The Decimator Handcannon is, indeed, a sidearm, as that is the section under which it is listed in the Weapons Section, just as the anti-tank axe that is the Giant Azoghar is, indeed, a polearm.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: warzoneD on January 03, 2008, 11:56:36 AM
Agreed - my question is - should it remain in that category or should it be moved (or at the very least exempted from being usable in CC). 

Again this is up to the game's creators and depends on what capabilities they had in mind for this creature.

D
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on January 03, 2008, 05:31:27 PM
To the Behemoth (the only model that garries the weapon), it is a sidearm.  Were another, smaller, model to use it, perhaps it would not, then, be classified as such.  I feel that it is fine to remain in that category.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: warzoneD on January 03, 2008, 05:54:08 PM
WELL - if that's the case - then according to my b.d. above it would be a totally viable secondary attack.

D
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Dr. Nick on January 04, 2008, 07:20:55 AM
yes, but better than 2 attacks with the azogar...

is it clear now, that the natural attack does not work / not need to be used  as sec. attack ??
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Lopis on January 04, 2008, 07:22:03 AM
I would say Yes.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: warzoneD on January 04, 2008, 12:02:22 PM
It seems you could choose--

1 attack with Azo
2nd with Decimator

Or

1 w/ Azo
2nd w/fist

You would not get 2 with Azo - since this only applies IF the model does not have a second weapon.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: jjdodger on January 04, 2008, 12:32:57 PM
You cannot attack with the azo and the decimator in one action, as you cannot use sidearms and a polearm in one action. As long as the 2 attacks are not the polearm and the decimator, you are fine.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: warzoneD on January 04, 2008, 12:39:29 PM
But it doesn't make sense - he has 4 arms - as I discuss above.

Frankly - I don't use them. :-D
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Dragon62 on January 04, 2008, 01:05:13 PM
I'd like to point out the PB used this weapon 1-handed 1st and 2nd edition, is modeled withit 1-handed and as far as I know all pictures show it as 1-handed. The Creature has 4 arms and should be able to use both although the Crucifier has 4 arms and can only make 1 sword/1pistol attack even though it has 2 of each.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: jjdodger on January 04, 2008, 01:19:45 PM
Lots of models have weapons, etc, that the corresponding stat lines do not have, ie, one of the bauhaus sgt models has a shotgun, but the stat line says assault rifle. IE, the models are not nessisarily WYSIWYG.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: warzoneD on January 04, 2008, 01:20:52 PM
Maybe Crucifier's are genetically...all thumbs ;)
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Veez on January 05, 2008, 12:45:28 AM
So what does this mean for the Demnoginis Plauge Behemoth (just adding fuel to the fire!)
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on January 06, 2008, 12:03:55 AM
So what does this mean for the Demnoginis Plauge Behemoth (just adding fuel to the fire!)

Not much - he still smells just as bad, but now needs to think before he swings.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Seamus on January 06, 2008, 05:36:05 AM
Not much - he still smells just as bad, but now needs to think before he swings.

 ;D  LOL

Thanks for the humor, I just spewed coffee on my keyboard.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: Veez on January 06, 2008, 05:42:37 AM
Sweet-on so many levels!
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: warzoneD on January 06, 2008, 01:08:49 PM
You might even say, sweet and sour.
Title: Re: Praetorian Behemoth
Post by: dmcgee1 on January 07, 2008, 02:55:29 PM
You might even say, sweet and sour.

BAD PUN ALERT!  Booooo!  ;D