Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Open Discussion => Topic started by: Jibbajabbawocky on November 29, 2005, 06:37:22 AM
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I figured a good ol' fashioned discussion on the fic of the game would be cool, so, who thinks Cybertronic are pawns of the Dark Legions?
Or are they the saviors of Humanity?
Remember, keep it polite!
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Despite the Brotherhood flipping out over Machinators and Cybertronic in general... Well if Cybertronic advancements were more widespread I'd see them as a gateway to future problems with the Dark Legion as they cut a fine line with their technology. During the rise of the corporation I'd say the Brotherhood was overly paranoid but wiht the second coming of the Dark Legion it's undeniable that the Brotherhood's concerns were well founded.
Is Cybertronic a lost Dark Apostle? I don't think so... Could their technology cause a downfall if accepted and used by the other Megacorps? Oh yes.
The Dark Legion has its claws into every corporation of course but I don't think Cybertronic stands out as a target any more than any other. Usually it's the Brotherhood pointing the finger of accusation on unfounded grounds. And the Cartel seems to generally weigh in favor of anyone opposing Cybertronic most likely from Brotherhood pressure.
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I don't think that cybertronic are really heretics if you look back at 1st edition it was just that dark Sym. had a large effect on machinery and AI's could easily become amok attacking there own troops. That's why the Brotherhood was so against Cybertronic because of there use of machinery and the fear that they could easily be turned against the other Corps.
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My real question is: are thinking machines safe? I mean, sure there's the Dark Symmetry, but what if that was a one time thing, and building computers is OK again?
I'm sure Cybertronic uses AIs of one kind or another to run their facilities, and those rarely explode on their own... yet...
Unless they don't, showing they don't completely trust their technology either...
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My real question is: are thinking machines safe?
Have you seen the Amok table? It is obvious, that they run on Windows and are antything but safe :-)
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My real question is: are thinking machines safe?
Have you seen the Amok table? It is obvious, that they run on Windows and are antything but safe :-)
But when my computer gets the Blue Screen of Death, it doesn't try to kill me...
... well there was that one time... ;)
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It does not try to kill you... yet. But the software gets better and better :-)
C'mon. The BSoD can ruin few hours of your work, and has this amazing ability to happen when the damage is going to be maximal. When they add REAL AI to that... and link it to something with weapons...
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Yes, Cybertronic is a facet of the dark soul. I base this accusation on material found in the RPG and it's source books.
The thinking machines started the first corporate war, and created internal conflict to weaken humanity before the invasion by the rest of the the Dark Legion forces. When it was discovered that technology could be corrupted thusly, it was banned. The creation of Cybertronic was just the mecahnism of dividing humanity that precluded the second invasion. In order to accomplish it this second time though, without machines to taint, it had to find a new strategy. Instead of pitting humanity against each other through manipulating the thinking machines that ran their societies it instead decided to divide us by undermining the teachings of the brotherhood. Cybertronic meets the needs of this new strategy perfectly - it's formation under legal means, and use of technology banned by the Brotherhood, was a blow to the Brotherhoods credibility. The time period when Cybertronic was formed was so long after the first comming of Darkness that a lot of people where skeptical that it ever even happened. There was a movement claiming that the brotherhood invented it as a means to control society through fear. Cybertronic's creation and appearent lack of dark influence supported this. In addition to providing a blow to Brotherhood authority, it also launched the second corporate wars. Imperial and bahaus, the ones with strongest ties to the BH, went on crusades against them. Mishima, who are a bunch of heathens anyway, became sort of "mutual interest" allies. Capitol remained neutral on the issue of Cybertronics alignment, because it was economically profitable. It was only after humanity was weakened in these ways that the darkness returned - and the pattern which was written on the luna cathedral walls was repeated. Like mark twain said "History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme a lot". The Brotherhood was there to try and make sure we recognized that and were prepared for the next rhyme......Cybertronic was the mask that hid it from the general public.
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BTW, i know that the second corporate wars were not just about Cybertronic - what i should of said is they provided the basis by undermining brotherhood teaching about the need for unity in the face of darkness. Once the "threat" was defaced it was easy for the corporations to look to their own needs instead of cooperating to achieve common security.
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hmmm...are they pawns of the Apostles or no?...
let me think about this....
as a fanatical Imperial player, they are the greatest threat to the sovereignty of the Serenity, as they are still contesting the rightful takeover by the Serenity's forces oft he moon Ganymede, and have been forced to hide among the Asteroid Belt, where they will eventually be defeated by the maniacal force of the Wolf Pack...
seriously...the Brotherhood has every right to be worried about Cybertronic and their rampant use of forbidden technology...since the AI's acnnot be controlled fully when they take fire, they are a threat to the human components of the Cybertronic armies, and the fact that the Dark Sym has shown some control over technology in the past, even though they have not been seen using it in this incursion in the inner worlds, is a worry for the Curia...The Brotherhood are just waiting for the moment in battle when the forces of Cybertronic are taken over by the Dark Sym and turn on whatever corporate force are unlucky enough to be allied with them at that time...
B...
I hope that made some sense...
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Are they heretics? Yes, they do not follow the techings of the Cardinal.
Are they tools of the Dark Soul? I say nay. The RPG material makes it clear that althought they emulate the technology of the DL, they don't serve them. That said, they are not Little Mary Sunshine either.
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They are heretics, burn them!
reasoning: They have a couple of machines which do think on thier own, which I believe is very against the Brotherhoods ban.
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Of course they are heretics. They go against the Brotherhood in just about every way possible! However, I don't believe they are affiliated with the DL.
It is kinda funny though that the 3 armies I play for Warzone are either DL or Cybertronic 8)!!
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Exerpt from the Humanity Court - Case of the Cardinal vs Cybertronic subcontractor Delta Tau Kai
....Can you blame the entire Cybertronic Corporation for the misbehving of a few bad apples who flouted the edicts of the Cardinal? The social ramifications of being less than 100% true human must be considered and found to have a detrimental cause on the development of a healthy psyche. To then be branded as outlaw on top of being considered outcast is cruelty in it's most base form. If Cybertronic is guilty then isn't a mark against the corporate system? And if this a mark against the corporate system then mustn't the very foundation of human experience be held accountable? I put it to you fellow forumites, isn't this an indictment against humanity? Well gentlemen, do what you will to Cybertronic, but we're not gooing to sit here and listen to you bad mouth human existance! Gentlemen!!!.........
At this point the defendents marched from the room humming the DTK coproate jingle and were summarily executed.
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to the Brotherhood they are heretics (as is Mishima) because they don't worship as the Brotherhood teaches.
if i remember correctly, Cybertronic is providing as much, if not more, funding for the Cartel than the Brotherhood is. But the corruption in the other megacorps administrations prevents an effective force from being used against the DL.
the BH is just annoyed they can't get any collection-plate money from a church with zero attendance (but the corp provides the required tithes) and they can't find any signs of DL corruption in any cybertronic employees !! (unless this bit of fluff has been changed).
and no, i do not think that cybertronic is a tool of the DL.(neither is mishima).
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Not.
2 Reasons:
1. Cybertronic has suffered losses at the hands of dark legion just as any other megacorp has.
2. No taint of the darkness has ever been discovered by a cybertronic employee.
Also, cyberware does interefere with the dark symmetry's (and the art as well). Take a look at the BH's Resonators , and then consider what this would mean for cybertronic.
This adds up to meant that there are more heretics (including one confimed cardinal!) in the BH than there are in Cybertronic.
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absence of proof is not proof of absence!
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When I was fiddling with the rpg I thought it would a great idea if the playing characters found information that tells the "true" story of Cybertronic. That the corporation was partly founded by a rouge member of the brotherhood. This person discovered a way to use the art to stop the dark legion taint on electronics and the cardinal would not let this be allowed because he would lose some of his power on humanity. So this person joins with a few scientists he's been working with to create cybertronic. Or, cybertronic is secretly controlled by the cardinal who will use the company to take over the other corporations eventually.
What do you think?
Firewolf
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absence of proof is not proof of absence!
The guru has spoken, grasshopper!
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When I was fiddling with the rpg I thought it would a great idea if the playing characters found information that tells the "true" story of Cybertronic. That the corporation was partly founded by a rouge member of the brotherhood. This person discovered a way to use the art to stop the dark legion taint on electronics and the cardinal would not let this be allowed because he would lose some of his power on humanity. So this person joins with a few scientists he's been working with to create cybertronic. Or, cybertronic is secretly controlled by the cardinal who will use the company to take over the other corporations eventually.
What do you think?
Firewolf
like it
a lot !!
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absence of proof is not proof of absence!
Just because there is absence of proof, doesn't mean that there is either. Actually, the history of cybertronic is of the scientists (after the first crusade) wanting to recreate the level of technology before the fall. But of course they had two concerns, the BH and the DL. The BH because of its idealogy against thinking machines, and things that mimic man. The dark legion poses problems for the corp in two ways, bad PR (nobody wants a toaster that could be infiltrated by the DL :)), and the fact that it gives the BH and Imperial an excuse to attack cybertronic.
I also think it is more than that, if cybertronic can defeat the DL without the help of the BH, the population at large might begin to question the BH mantra as humanity's savior.
But just think about the implications of the Ganamede ploy for a moment. What did cybertonic get out of it?
1st. It consumed vast amounts of Imperial resources that would have been devoted else where (namely the asteroid belt).
2nd. It puts a spotlight somewhere else, other than where it could be (their shipyards, and their other planet they have that is one of Jupiter's moons, I forget the name).
3rd. Puts Imperial out there with them against the DL.
4th. The BH by default is forced to have a presence outside the asteroid belt.
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As far as I`ve understood the background, they are heretics to some teachings of the Brotherhood, but fighting against the DL with other forces of humanity.
The Brotherhood just can`t take the lack of influence and the deviation what they see as the "true way".
So my vote goes for not heretics.
Greetings,
Catinator
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DL forces also fight against other DL forces, so that may simply mean that the Apostle leading Cybertronic is way smarter than the others ;-)
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But just think about the implications of the Ganamede ploy for a moment. What did cybertonic get out of it?
1st. It consumed vast amounts of Imperial resources that would have been devoted else where (namely the asteroid belt).
2nd. It puts a spotlight somewhere else, other than where it could be (their shipyards, and their other planet they have that is one of Jupiter's moons, I forget the name).
3rd. Puts Imperial out there with them against the DL.
4th. The BH by default is forced to have a presence outside the asteroid belt.
But let's look at the Ganymede ploy from the Imperial point of view.
1.) It DID consume a vast amount of Imperial resources, but it then allowed Imperial to finally have a homeworld of it's own (Ganymede is the moon of Jupiter), while forcing Cybertronic out into the asteroid belt.
Before, Cybertronic was on the point of the solar system against a major DL incursion from Nero. Imperial, taking the moon of Ganymede, now is on that point, and as a fanatically loyal army that will fight to the last man. With Cybertronic on that point, with so much AI on the field of battle, the Brotherhood were nervous, and rightfully so with the history of the DL and technology, that the armies of Cybertronic would either turn or be shut down by the Symmetry.
Now, as you said, the Brotherhood is out there at the edge of the system as well, patrolling the solar system against the DL. This also places Cybertronic between Imperial, the Wolf Packs, and Capitol in case they are turned by the Symmetry.
In short, they may not be heretics, but they are surrounded by powerful forces that can overpower them very quickly if they fully commited.
B...
I think that made sense...(late...very sleepy)...
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[But let's look at the Ganymede ploy from the Imperial point of view.
1.) while forcing Cybertronic out into the asteroid belt.
Now, as you said, the Brotherhood is out there at the edge of the system as well, patrolling the solar system against the DL. This also places Cybertronic between Imperial, the Wolf Packs, and Capitol in case they are turned by the Symmetry.
In short, they may not be heretics, but they are surrounded by powerful forces that can overpower them very quickly if they fully commited.
Cybertronic wasn't forced into the asteroid belt, but was already there. Also, the strategy of cybertronic is to keep themselves alive by preventing such coordination between the BH, Imperial and the other Corps. In fact the cybers have good relations with all the corps except Imperial (especially some of the factions within each). Think of all the components that the cybers provide for them. The BH is in a quandary because they really don't want to fight 1/5 of humanity. If they did, the DL could just sweep in and mop up the pieces.
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Cybertronic only has good relationships with both Mishima and Bauhaus, and one of neutrality with Capitol (if I remember the history correct, I may not). But Brotherhood indoctrination in the major corporations has ensured that the fear of the DL corrupting technology is in the back of the minds of the general populace. The only of the corps that has unilaterally rejected the Brotherhood declaration of technology corruption, besides Cybertronic, is Mishima, with the use of Meka suits and Phoenix Samurai.
B.
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Cant there be a poll for it?
however, the Cybertronic are not heretics nor pawns of the dark legion. The Attila units never fade away in the presence of the dark legion and the fact that HALF of the Doomtroopers are Cybertronic!
As a newbie in the Doomtroopers heard from one of his superior when asking about the quiete enormous trooper that sat in the corner and said nothing. Well, he is from cybertronic. They donīt say much and they donīt drink. But when hell breaks out you will love him.
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All Cybertronic citiziens should be rounded up for execution.
All men, all women, all children,
ehhhh all machines.
;)
____________________
IMPERIAL Strikes back.
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Jugdin' from what I've seen in WZ saga till now... EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE;)
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Jugdin' from what I've seen in WZ saga till now... EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE;)
Yeah, maybe the Durand is the 6th apostle. The Apostle of Pride.
:o
(oh the inquisition is going to come after for that one).
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well...accordin' to Brotherhood sourcebook of MC... Durand I and his 2 bros R IMMORTAL, and they alternate positions in Cardinalship (p.70)!!! So...they cheated us once, why not twice:):):):):):)?
Isn't that bad being heretic...:)
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Honestly now...
1) Mannerheim (Founder of Cyberchemical, the "father" of cybertronic) found a way for humanity to COMPLETELY resist Symmetry. The day was supposed to demonstrate this to Cartel ,and become available to all, was murdered (maybe the BROS...who wuld need them after that?)
2)Cyber's r the most "solid" and uniform corporation, meanin' that u wont see any heretics there except if...ALL CYBERS R HERETICS:)
3) They r the most eager to cooperation with all etc etc etc
These r STRONG reasons for someone to support that Cybers r not with DL
besides...if we take Bros teachin' " by the book"... ALL R HERETICS
1) Mishima, for non-followers and cooperation with Cybers
2) Cybers...for the known reasons:)
3) IMPERIAL COZ CONSTANTLY BREAKS Toth's RULE OF "NO TRAVELS CLOSE TO PLUTO,NERO etc" and ALWAYS CAUSIN' DISTURBANCES WITH ITS "STEALING" FROM THE OTHER CORPORATIONS (ironic,huh:) )
4) Romanovs cooperate with Cybers
5) Capitol...capitolian officials just dont CARE to spread BROS teachings
6) BROS!!!...coz Durand Bro's KEEPIN' IMMORTALITY for them and in BRO as a whole use "gray" technology (call me resonators)
so... for similar reasons that cybers r chased... almost ALL HUMANITY SULD BE
heretics!
BROs are insane more than Muawhije (sorry for the spellin', never cannt say his name correct...anyway, I believe to Algeroth, so no problem:) )
BUT...I STILL INSIST.... ANYTHING CAN BE POSSIBLE IN MUTANT CHRONICLES UNIVERSE!!! DONT SAY IT ONLY FOR THE CYBERS, THIS IS WHAT HISTORY HAVE SHOWN TILL NOW...
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" CYBERTRONIC
Just as Cardinal Roland was about to speak, a messenger of the Cartel High Command entered the hall and called for silence. He bore with him grievous news for the people gathered at the devotion. While he spoke, the hall was emptied, leaving only Cardinal Roland and his kin of the Brotherhood. And the Cardinal had a premonition of dark times for the corporations and humanity, because a new power had entered the scene. And the Cardinal's followers cried out in grief and fear, because the already meager resources of humanity were now further divided. And this tragedy was to become known as the founding of Cybertronic.
And just as Cardinal Roland had forseen, the rise of the new business empire seemed to have no ceiling. Day by day, new losses were discovered among the directors of Mishima and Capitol. Smithies, pits, docks, banks, universities and garrisons were secretly purchased by the Cybertronic crew, who were all former employees of the other megacorporations.
But however hard we tried, o Brothers, none of us could find the slightest trace of influence from the Dark legion in the hearts of Cybertronic. Not even the changellors grasping far into their minds found anything but clenliness and health.
And so it was that the fifth, and so far last, of the megacorporations saw the light of day.
- The Eighth Chronicle, The Megacorporations and the Cartel, by Lucretius Marcellianus"
(p.190 Mutant Chronicles RPG 2nd edition).
"THE THEORIES
Ever since the founding, the scientists and managers of the other megacorporations have struggled to understand the underlying power behind the Cybertronic bussines group. There are multiple theories: some official, others unofficial, some very believable, others pure fabrications. But no matter which theory you accept, the fact remain: the Cybertronic scientists possess knowledge that their colleagues don't.
Industrial spies and infiltrators have been of no use. Sometimes they returned with little or nothing of value to report, but most of the time they just didn't return. Not even the Mishiman agents, specialists at the task, have managed to uncover anything within Cybertronic.
All these things that make Cybertronic so unique- their sudden appearance in the world of high finance, their ability to recruit the intellectual elite of the other corporations, their astonishing technological breakthroughs- puzzle the rest of the megacorporations. There are a lot of theories to explain what is called the <<Cybertronic phenomenon>>, but few facts."
(p.190 Mutant Chronicles RPG 2nd edition).
" THE OFFENHAUER THEORY
Within Bauhaus, the interdisciplinary theory created by the group of scientists led by General Jean-Louis Offenhauer has come to be the prevailing one. In short, this theory purports that Cybertronic has developed biochemical methods for altering the functions of the mind and body. The nervous system and the brain functions are manipulated by a secret substance, bacterium or genetic pattern.
A person infected with the substance begins to think in line with the Cybertronic mentality, with little or no emotional influence in decision making. The theory's main support is based on the fact that the Cybertronic crew is infamous for being predictable, almost machine-like in doing what seems most logical at the time, taking absolutely all possible factors into account.
General Offenhauer, 96, is currently chairman of Cyberchemicals, inc."
(p.191 Mutant Chronicles RPG 2nd edition).
"THE SULLIVAN SYNDROME
Former Capitol Psycologist Dr. Simon Sullivan, expert on psychological combat reactions, theorized that the <<Cybertronic Phenomenon>> is a mental abnormality among the traitors. Faced with the perpetual threat from the Dark Legion, the terror- propoganda from the Brotherhood and the high demands from society, these people have been struck by a mental disease resembling schizophrenia. This new mental state causes people to give up their past and start a new career in a new environment. The syndrome, he continues, also changes the brain's chemical makeup, which improves the capability of logical thinking and calculating while suppressing emotions and imagination."
(p.191 Mutant Chronicles RPG 2nd edition).
...a great topic guys. For those who don't have a copy of the RPG, I thought you may find the quoted source material of interest. There are a few more, so if anyone wants me to scribe 'em here just give a shout.
...I am inclined to think Cybertronics is the work of a secret society within the Cartel. A sort of Illuminati conspiracy on a solar system wide scale. As to how much "they" live and have influenced and orchestrated events in the Mutant Chronicles era is open to much speculation. There are numerous referances to such a secret society in the RPG and even a illustration on p.70 in the 2nd edition RPG shows a guy in a suit and tie giving a obvious secret society signal with the classic # 11 power symbol in the background...curiosly the character is shown to represent a "security/ investigation" type. Cybertronics always impressed me as being a people who have lost their humanity and more or less have become mind controlled robotic slaves serving and doing the bidding of the machine...both politically and physically. The question then is who is controlling them and for what purpose? It's all about control...and that is something a illuminati-like secret society would be working on behind the scenes on the stage of our solar system. Order out of Chaos is what they are all about. Create the chaos (war, emergencies, disasters, social unrest, divide and then conquer). I also see the Dark Apostle Semai involved somehow. Who is pulling who's strings I wonder...?
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...here's some supporting reference material. (p.196) RPG 2nd edition:
"The Cartel did promote greater cooperation between the megacorporations, but it was also a breeding place for it's own petty squabbles and human greed. It was a cesspool of degeneration and cruelty. Some officials stopped at nothing to acheive their own goals, and the Cartel was made into a secret society, existing only for the sake of it's own."
...maybe those of Cybertronic are indeed tainted and corrupted in the same way as the dreaded Dark Legion, that they are indeed another manifestation of the Dark Symmetry, and that this cannot be detected by the Brotherhood as it can be with the Dark Legion because those of Cybertronic have minds that have been altered in such a way that such a condition is masked or hidden by it. (See "The Offenhaurer Theory"/ "The Sullivan Syndrom"). They are not even aware of their Heretical nature hiding beneath their altered brain chemistry and minds. They are in a sense Dark Legion sleeper agents. This explains why the Brotherhood can find no trace of the Dark Symmetry. Their technology is not corrupted by the Dark Legion in the way the old technologies were prior to the first Corporate wars because it does not need to be...yet.