Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Dragon62 on November 16, 2005, 03:47:14 PM
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Should the light Infantry Captain have a M-50 assault rifle?
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Still waiting for an answer to this question.
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Isn't he modeled with one (I'm at work and can't check my mini's)? Or maybe I'm thinking of the sgt...
He's got that shotgun, though.
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He is modeled with both shotgun and assault rifle.
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hmmmm.... perhaps it's a typo?
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he's got both on the model. It'd just make him cost more and he's equally dismal with either. use him for the ok LD or an extra wound.
-PFC joe
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I think that in 2nd edition he was armed with both weapons...
B.
he does need that M-50 though
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He's suppose to have both i think this needs to be corrected and FAQ'ed
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he's got both on the model. It'd just make him cost more and he's equally dismal with either. use him for the ok LD or an extra wound.
-PFC joe
Are you sure the points for the M-50 aren't already calculated into his PV? (Your Warzone-Fu is stronger than mine.)
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The pts are already figured in. There is a 9pt difference between the sgt. and captain for both the light inf. and heavy inf. The hv inf. captain has both shotgun and assault rifle.
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Is there an official answer for this question please?
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The sgt has the m-50 assault rifle. The Captain is armed with the M-516 Shot gun. THe mini has the shotgun in hand. What I noticed is that the old box was labeled to also have him include the m-50 assalut rifle bit. I will run this by the bossman and see what he says. My guess is that He should not have the bit given he does not have it in the stats.
Jon
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I substituted a little document pouch in place of the M-50. Figured in the Corporate wars that you'd need a place to put yer ledger.
-PFC joe
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Strangely, when I checked my LI captain, his M-50 had allready fallen off. So now I have an extra M-50. :)
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I had asked thom about the m50 assault rifle and the cpt.
He has the rifle more so for just uniformity, simce it is the squad weapon he has it but his weapon of choice is the shotgun. Hence that is what he has for weapon stats.
Make sense.
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That's ok, besides, the Shotgun gives the squad a nasty close up surprise. :)
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So the official answer is he doe'nt have the AR even though the point difference between the sgt. and captain in both ligth inf. and heavy inf. is 9pts with the HI Captain having both weapons.
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There is more at play in the nine points than just weapons. The stats are completly different across the board. The points just aren't there for an additional weapon. Heck, if you really want to know, the majority of the additional points are in the RC/CC and the extra wound (with emphasis on the extra wound).
So yes, the M-50 strapped to his side is only for show but you don't have to worry because it's not figured into the points cost.
-PFC joe
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Joe is right. The LI captain with knife, shotgun and M-50 would be roughly 35 points (add 4 points for the rifle). Honestly, I'd prefer him this way. Capitol shotguns are so crappy... he really needs this rifle (btw - he's paying for RC he does not really need...).
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I'm surprised Capitol doesn't have an Auto-shotgun... and saddened. :(
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The high RC with a template weapon is in an effort to reduce min-maxing. Other wise you can have some seriously unbalanced characters with high CC, incredibly low RC and a template lobber. I'm still not entirely convinced that certain weapons don't have prerequisite associated stats, ie a minimum of 9 RC to equip an auto-shotgun (that is completely conjecture, I don't know one way or the other).
If you want to rationalize it, think of it as a required level of skill in order to utilize the unique properties of a flechette/sprayer weapon.
and capitol has always had the single and double barrel (over and under?!) shotguns. It's just their thing. ( I blame Target and thier weird European view on guns)
-PFC joe
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I totally agree with the high RC thing (Otherwise I could have an RC of 0 and auto-hit 4 people!).
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If the price of the template lobber reflected this ability (autohitting 4 people while having RC 0), it would be ok (well, it might be ok now, shotguns seem to be more expensive than assault rifles in this game). The author of the point system obviously decided to use very simple (but not very efficient) approach - assign costs to items, abilities, statistics and try to somehow balance the cost and efficiency of units by giving them (often unnecessary, useless or overcosted*) stat levels, abilities and equipment (e.g. the "CC-only units with high RC" problem). It does not always work. But that's discussion for entirely different topic...
The big problem with Light Infantry Captain is the simple fact, that he's useless. His only asset is his cool model. Like other low-ranking Capitolian officers he has too poor LD to be purchased as a commander - Infantry Major is just 5 points more expensive and so much better in this role (especially as Tactical Sense provider, since he also has assault rifle and will do something useful besides giving orders). He's useless as combat individual in most circumstances with his short life expectancy (low AR) and low-damage small-template shotgun.
BTW - Target's view is not European view. It's simply Target's view.
* why overcosted? For example, 1 point of Fast Shot seems to cost more than 1 point of LD. Just compare Ducals and Freedom Brigades.
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Actually, I used a LI captain in a game the other week, and he is surprisingly good. Not great, mind you, but good. He survived well until the end of the game, mostly in HTH against Cartel agents. he's worth the 30 points you spend on him... and thats about it.
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He's a cheap officer that lends a little extra ooomphf to the Light Infantry squads. He has a very good use, and that is as an officer for LI.
He's LI, what do you expect him to do? With the extra wound and slightly better armor, he can soak a bit of damage and keep the squad from panicing. The LI Capt. also provides much needed CC support for the squad. With his Bowie knife and decent CC he can meet most charges rather well.
This is not 40k.
other than specialized Personalities, Individuals are not whirling death machines walking the battlefield.
Officers primarily provide moral boosts or further tactical options. The Infantry Colonel has the same load out, but you're not calling him useless. They both serve the squads they are with and that's about it.
-PFC joe
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Colonel is actually very useful, but not because of his loadout. He's not a killer - he's walking Ini roll winner and moral support. The LI captain costs as much as two LI troopers, but is less useful than them - even against charges. His LD is 10 - Imperial Regulars are more corageous and have higher initiative than this guy. His Tactical Sense is useless (shotgun only, remember?) until you buy him Command Helmet and equip his team with Comm Links - at 3 points per grunt trooper you're not likely to to that.
I do not want him to be Space Marine Force Commander in disguise, but I want him to be a useful officer. He isn't one right now - at least against a competent opponent. It is difficult to even call him cheap - when you compare this guy to the Infantry Major (only 5 points more!) you can see, how pathetic the captain is.
Jibbajabbawocky - as for the captain "being surprisingly good" - an Undead Legionnaire of mine once killed a Demon Hunter that was 26" away in 2 shots. Are Undead Legionnaires surprisingly good, or was I simply very lucky?
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although, now that you bring it up, I was making some really good rolls with the Captain...
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Well, there are some Modells in the Game which are a little bit ineffectiv. The LI Captain is a example. I dont want to point my finger on the units i use in my game and cry, but i think it is a good Discussion to throw this in.
There are many Units in the Game with Shotguns only, and most of them are not able to defend themselve in close Combat, because they have no CC- capable Weapons. And Shotguns have a very Short range, you know.
The LI Captain has a knife, that means that he is able to make attacks in CC, others do not.
With the existing Rule (in the FAQ) that your Models may NOT use their Weapon as a club and use their ST and CC to fight, many of the Shotgun- only carrying Models are, lets say, kicked in the ass. Come Close, shoot your Shotgun, be in CC. Yes, you may break from CC, but fire a template Weapon into the Group of your own Models and Enemys? No Way!
And even IF they may use their ST in CC - a damage of 4 in Close Combat is not really good.
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The author of the point system obviously decided to use very simple (but not very efficient) approach - assign costs to items, abilities, statistics and try to somehow balance the cost and efficiency of units by giving them (often unnecessary, useless or overcosted*) stat levels, abilities and equipment (e.g. the "CC-only units with high RC" problem).
The same aplies to Bushido Samurai - they have 8 RC and no shooting weapon. And don't say anything about min-maxing - Machinators have 6 RC and are as good in CC (they are much tougher), and what is more look at Yorama monks - they have lower RC than Bushidos (7) and they have thrown weapons. So the unit which do not need RC at all have 8 RC ( not to mention it is completly against this unit fluff), and the unit which need RC have 7. I don't see any logic behind it.
There are others problems - like sergeants with shotguns in asault rifle eqiuped units - but these are harder to repair becouse of WYSIWIG.
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like sergeants with shotguns in asault rifle eqiuped units
...and chainsword-and-pistol armed sarges in some other units (like Brotherhood grunt squads)
...and sarges with tactical sense in grunt units armed with pistols (no problem with WYSIWYG here, but 2PCs are wasted on each one of them)
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Yes, there are a lot of examples of wasted points.
Another good example is the Capitolian Desert Scorp.
They have a CAR-24 and a Punisher. A Punisher only hits one better in CC and they do the same damage.
How many poits costs the punisher? I
On topic again. I can only think of one usefull use of the LI Captain.
This is, if you have 31 points left and are seaarching for another model,
to get more activations as your opponent.
If you have 35, 36 points left I would always prefere Sgt Carter, HI Captain or the Major.
And yes, the Colonel is Capitols best Individual. You can use him for:
Winning Initiative, spotting models, rallying other, take some wounds to protect others, blowing away enemys if they come to close.
But, why damn is he just a devision commander and not a force commander?
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Pieta, Squad Leaders make Tac Sense rolls for their entire squad, not just themselves. Individuals and Squad Leaders that have tac sense can roll for their entire unit. You do not require a Comm Helmet or other equipment as long as the TacSense model is a part of the squad and within Command distance. This works almost exactly like it did in second edition.
I'm tryin to find it, but as far as I remember the Final ruling on Weapons in CC was that non pistol/smg weapons may be used to attack for strength. Even then, most Shotgun wielding units have either a CC weapon or a natural attack. (Yes I know certain squad leaders as well as randomn other units only have a Shotgun).
As for questionable points cost, while I do lament having to pay for the pistol on my Heavy Infantry I know it's not going to change. Sorry.
-PFC joe
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On topic again. I can only think of one usefull use of the LI Captain.
This is, if you have 31 points left and are seaarching for another model,
to get more activations as your opponent.
I agree. LI Cpt is a cheap way to gor activation rushing tactic. Or if one is going for extra officers to satisfy the requirements to get bombardments.
Not much else. But that DOES give Capitol a chance to get cheap officers when going for the bombardments.
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Pieta, Squad Leaders make Tac Sense rolls for their entire squad, not just themselves. Individuals and Squad Leaders that have tac sense can roll for their entire unit. You do not require a Comm Helmet or other equipment as long as the TacSense model is a part of the squad and within Command distance. This works almost exactly like it did in second edition.
1. My UWZ book disagrees with your opinion. It does not say anything about sharing TS by squad leaders (other than the part in com helmet description)
2. We (Polish players)once asked Thom for clarification of Tactical Sense. He answered, that only models with commo helmets may share their TS with models with comm links, in every other situation it is "every man for himself"
3. Sacred Warriors would not need sarge with TS even if it worked like in 2nd edition
4. If the TS description has changed since the book has been printed, please put the new, corrected description in FAQ.
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Mayby some official word about what Pietia wrote - becouse I am very confused (and my friends too) :-\
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Mayby some official word about what Pietia wrote - becouse I am very confused (and my friends too) :-\
I wouldn't hold my breath. Best to just sit down with your friends and make up a house rule that satisfies all.
I don't know if it's the correct way or not, but we have played TS like this:
a squad member wishes to fire at a target that is not it's priority target:
-a Tactical Sense roll is made (by a squad leader, should one exist; or the model itself if it has the skill)
-if it succeeds, the model asking to switch it's target is allowed to do that for the rest of it's turn
-if it does not succeed, the model asking to switch it's target can't do that and must target it's closest enemy
-only one TS roll can be made per turn per model (ie. if there is a Colonel leading a squad with a Captain AND a Sergeant and each have TS, you can't make 3 rolls to try to switch targets) and should it succeed, it holds for the rest of the model's turn and if it doesn't succeed, the model must use all it's remaining shooting attacks to attack it's closest enemy.
Then another squad member wishes to use TS and the process repeats itself.
We've used TS like this without Comm Helm/Comm Links, but then again the reason to actually USE Comm Helm/Comm Link is a bit vague if it's not needed to convey Tactical Sense "orders"... I don't know if it's needed to use the skill or not. The TS skill description is incomplete and too ambigious so there's room for many interpretations (I'm sure we've played "the wrong" way, but it does work decent enough in our games).
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Sorry since the move and Thoms ever persistant computer troubles it's been hard to pin him down long enough to get confirmation one way or the other. Don't worry, we're not ignoring ya.
-PFC joe
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I don't know if it's the correct way or not, but we have played TS like this:
a squad member wishes to fire at a target that is not it's priority target:
-a Tactical Sense roll is made (by a squad leader, should one exist; or the model itself if it has the skill)
-if it succeeds, the model asking to switch it's target is allowed to do that for the rest of it's turn
-if it does not succeed, the model asking to switch it's target can't do that and must target it's closest enemy
-only one TS roll can be made per turn per model (ie. if there is a Colonel leading a squad with a Captain AND a Sergeant and each have TS, you can't make 3 rolls to try to switch targets) and should it succeed, it holds for the rest of the model's turn and if it doesn't succeed, the model must use all it's remaining shooting attacks to attack it's closest enemy.
Then another squad member wishes to use TS and the process repeats itself.
This is how it was once explained to me and how I teach it on my Crusades.
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Below is the answer to a question about how tac sense works given by Thom to Polish players. Thom's answers are in red. They seem to be exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting, and they came from the guy who wrote all those rules:
8 ) Tactical sense (pg. 81) – there are great doubts on that. Please give us examples of use of that SA in following situations:
a) Sgt. of the unit got tactical sense SA (how to use it by a grunt soldier of that unit)
A Sgt. with TS only affects himself.
b) a unit without a sgt. where every single member got own Tactical Sense
Each makes a seperate LD roll to test and see if they can do it.
c) a unit in command radius of an officer equipped with Command Helmet.
Each model gets to make a LD test (Give Orders +TS)