Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Warzone => Game Questions => Topic started by: Dragon62 on May 22, 2007, 08:30:18 AM
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Several times at Talamania this weekend I saw people use their wait counters during their own turn. opponent has gone and on their turn had a squad on wait rolled to use their waits then activated to same squad hense giving squad members 4 actions. I was under the impression that you use waits to react to your opponent and cant find anyware in the book or FAQ's that says differently. I've been wrong in the pass on several things thats why i'am asking now for a clarification to when a wait can be used. On page 44 under 6.2.10 Wait it says "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, by expending the wait counter at any time by declaring that it is interrupting another model's current action to preform one of the following actions:Countercharge,firing,brace,withdrawl, and dive for cover." No where do I see turning your own turn you can use the waits and then activate squad.
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I also thought wait had to be reactive. I never noticed the practice this weekend but admittedly I spent more time visiting than playing ;D
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Several times at Talamania this weekend I saw people use their wait counters during their own turn. opponent has gone and on their turn had a squad on wait rolled to use their waits then activated to same squad hense giving squad members 4 actions. I was under the impression that you use waits to react to your opponent and cant find anyware in the book or FAQ's that says differently. I've been wrong in the pass on several things thats why i'am asking now for a clarification to when a wait can be used. On page 44 under 6.2.10 Wait it says "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, by expending the wait counter at any time by declaring that it is interrupting another model's current action to preform one of the following actions:Countercharge,firing,brace,withdrawl, and dive for cover." No where do I see turning your own turn you can use the waits and then activate squad.
Wait AC's may be used at any time, except during the activation of the model on Wait.
According to p. 44, under 6.2.10 - WAIT: ...A model that has Actions left in its turn may expend all remaining Actions to go on Wait. Place a Wait counter beside the Waiting model, which will remain until the model is next activated.
It does say that, "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, by expending the wait counter at any time by declaring that it is interrupting another model's current action to preform one of the following actions:Countercharge,firing,brace,withdrawl, and dive for cover." What this means is that a model may react to an enemy's actions by interrupting their current action. However, the Wait (or Ambush) action may be used after the enemy performs AC's. A model may not spend its Wait AC during its activation.
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Maybe i'am not reading right but where does it say at anytime other then where it is used as a reaction. I see no wording that would allow a squad on wait after an opponent has finished his activation and it is now your turn to activate to use the wait actions and then activate the same squad. I understand a wait last until the models are next activated but in all 3 editions wait was an interupt to what the opponent was doing.*IMHO if it's your turn and you choose to use a wait that would be activating that squad hense the wait is gone and the model would only have its normal actions. Added after post*
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You posted it, Phil...
On page 44 under 6.2.10 Wait it says "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, ...
**edit: Further, say, for example, that you have just completed activating your unit, and I wish to use a Wait AC from a squad that has already activated and placed an AC on Wait. Are you saying that, in your opinion, I cannot? What if the model on Wait has not, this turn, yet, activated? Can I not use its Wait after you move, then activate a separate unit? The same principle would apply, in my opinion, to any unit. Therefore, I could use a Wait AC, then activate the unit, immediately after resolution of the Wait AC. This is how I see it. Anybody else see it like Phil, me, or any other way? :) **
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Hello
So the real crux question IS can a model and or unit use it's wait action WITHOUT reacting to an opponents action and then activate. Thus in essence having four activations or only come off wait when reacting meaning countercharge, defensive fire, and or duck for cover.
wmeredith.
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That refers to interrupting your opponent and going turning his turn not yours. And it says react to opponents model hense its an interrupt. Nowhere does it imply you can during your turn take a squad you have on wait use the waits then active the squad. Once you do anything with the squad your activating it and waits are lost.
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The crux is in two of the statements in the rules; the one that states that, "Place a Wait counter beside the Waiting model, which will remain until the model is next activated," and the one which states, "A model on wait may react to an opponent's model's out of normal turn sequence, ..."
** edit: Read Firing From Wait **
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That refers to interrupting your opponent and going turning his turn not yours. And it says react to opponents model hense its an interrupt. Nowhere does it imply you can during your turn take a squad you have on wait use the waits then active the squad. Once you do anything with the squad your activating it and waits are lost.
All that the rules are stating, here, is that you may interrupt the opponent's normal sequence - it does not say that you must use Wait to react - merely that you may interrupt the enemy's AC.
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My problem here is that if its your turn to go, It's your turn to activate, any unit you do anything with is an activation hense you would lose any waits your squad has.
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Some questions to ponder, followed by a few examples:
Question 1: When must a model on Wait be reactive?
The rules do not say. Does that mean that we interpret reactive as the first model that activates within LOS of the Unit on Wait?
Must we react to its first AC?
Its last?
Any in between?
If we must react to its first AC, this seems to indicate that the Unit on Wait will fire at the first thing that moves, and wouldn't even need to make an LD check to do so.
If we are allowed to Wait until it has completed its last AC, then the unit should have the perogitive to Wait until it sees fit to use the Wait AC, if at all.
According to the rules, a model's Wait Counter remains until its next activation. To me, this means that the model may hold that AC until such a time as the model wishes to attmept to use it. Therefore, a model on Wait may wait until a model is charging it to perform an AC to defend itself, or until a rocket is about to blow up between his legs and attempt to dive for cover, wait until the paradeploying Stalkers drop in behind it, or wait until none of that happens, and fire at the hapless bogey left standing as a target by his squadmates.
Question 2: Why do we choose to read this rules as "must be reactive," when it states that the model "may" use the wait AC?
Under normal circumstances, the argument is either "must" or "may." Therefore, in lieu of the rules stating that the Wait AC must be used as a reactive move, I believe that we should read it as it may be a reactive move, allowing the model to interrupt the normal turn of an enemy model.
jjdodger positied to me that the rule is open to abuse. I do not see how. Phil states that this, in effect gives the model 4 AC's (an extra AC for an AC 3 model). Not true. In fact, there is a good chance that the AC(s) placed on Wait may be wasted as there might be nothing to do with them. The AC was spent by sacrificing one or more AC's on the last activation, and may be used before the next time that that model activates, according to the rules. Nowhere does it states that it must be used to react to the enemy.
For those that believe that it must be a reaction to an enemy model, technically, any AC from Wait spent to perform some AC would, indeed, be a reaction to an enemy AC, no matter when it happened. Nowhere does it say when the model on Wait has to react to the enemy. The entire squad may have, indeed, activated, and activated again, in the next turn, before the Wait is spent.
I cannot see it another way. If I am missing something, please, enlighten me. I freely admit that I may be wrong, but I do believe that I am interpreting this correctly. :)
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The whole purpose of Wait is to spend at least one AC to reserve that AC to use in a tactically advantageous moment.
Let's say I have an unactivated squad in front of an enemy unit that is on Wait. I choose, instead, to activate a unit that is farther away from the squad on Wait. The squad on Wait cannot react to the farther squad, due to target priority. It must fire at the closer unit, according to the rules. I cannot Tac-sense from Wait, nor can I Aim from Wait, rendering a sniper's Tac-sense unusable. This makes no sense, especially if the two enemy units are the only ones left on the board. If the squad on Wait wishes to fire at the closer enemy, it should be allowed to do so.
It should not matter when a model uses its Wait AC. It has already paid for by going on Wait for the cost of one or more AC's. It is not giving a model extra AC's. If it uses it in the sense that Phil describes, it still gets an additional AC before it activates. It is entitled to it by having placed the AC on Wait. It is not allowed to Move with that AC - only the AC's allowed by Wait are allowed to be used.
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Dave to your question #1 and the following post both topics are reactive action which there is no arguing about that. The advantage of wait is as models out of line of sight or behind cover for firing purposes move into a better spot to be attacked. The abuse that i'am taking about and maybe what Jeff was talking about is that on your turn a sqaud on wait under what your saying can activat twice, once using wait and then normal activation. I know you have to make a LD test but there is a chance maybe small but still a chance they all could pass. Also this may be a grey area to you but remember this book is filled with mistakes. In both 1st and 2nd edition the rules clearly state a wait can only be used to react to an opponents models action I feel the intent is the same just the wording may be off enough for you to take it to mean what you do.
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Allow me to ask, Phil - when must I react to another enemy model if I am going to use a Wait AC?
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Before the units last models last action is finished. Once the unit is finished its your turn. Once its your turn the next action you do is an activation. It may sound stupid because you can still attack the same squad. It does stop a player from placing his entire army on wait and then on his turn letting his entire army use his waits and then activate his 1st squad.
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So, if I understand you, correctly, I can wait until the next to the last AC of the last model to activate in a squad to react to it.
Why can't I wait until that models finishes its last AC? I can wait until the first model finishes, according to your explanation.
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As I stated above once the model is finished its your turn so you have to activate something. If you choose to activate a squad on wait you loss your wait.
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So if I activate another squad, what prevents me from using the other squads wait AC's? The first sentence states that the Wait AC is an exception to the normal rules and turn sequence.
As Firing from Wait is an AC allowed to be performed, and I must shoot the closest model, how am I reacting to the model I am shooting if I act after a model that is farter has taken n AC?
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I think the FAQ"s team should check with Thom and see exactlly when a wait can be used and if it is only used as a reactive action. This needs to be discussed because there are definitly different opinions on this topic. There's no reason for you and me to go back and forth on this subject anymore we are both set in the way we think. ;D ;D ;D ;D Look forward to the answer and gaming with you again. ;D* Mod I posted same time as you. As I stated earlier the normal turn sequence is you go I go. The refferance is that you are allowed to interrupt during your opponents turn. And know i'am done with this one*
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Fair enough, bud. :)
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If anyone else would like to chime in, I would be interested in hearing others' opinions. Phil and I have agreed to let this be decided by the pros, and will not discuss it, further (we'd like to remain friends ;)).
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I think we are forgetting that wait is risky to use. You can fail your LD test to come off and that action is wasted. You can also be killed before you can come off wait thus losing the action as well.
Phil I have an example for you.
Units A, B and C are all on wait.
Unit A uses his wait to counter a charge.
Turn ends with unit B and C still on wait.
Unit B comes off wait to shoot a charging model from unit X but misses and dies
Unit C waits till the rest of the unit X moves thus ending their activation. Then Unit C uses his wait to fire into unit X.
The very next game activation Squad C < which includes unit C> activates < to clear the way etc>.
Are you saying that is not legal?
Unit C is reacting to a situation in front of him but doesnt affect him but does provide an advantage < unit is now in short as opposed to medium etc>
Another example
Same set up
Units A, B and C are all on wait.
Units A and B are on wait and killed by squad X
Unit C is behind units A and B.
Squad Y is nearby and unit C wishes to wait to see what they do.
Squad Y charges another squad not including unit C.
Unit C the uses wait to fire on squad X before losing it.
Squad C activates.
Unit C is responding to enemy actions before his squad activates. Seems legal to me.
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I feel the whole wait discussion posted revolves around the may and must argument. May is much more powerful (and harder to clarify) than must. May means that the player has a choice as to when. If it does not clearly specify when then I feel it can be used when the player wants to use it. I also feel it states a player can come off of wait to react to an opponent action. It needs to be clarified when wait can be used. If it does not state the limits to the react of an oppponents action (timing) I would feel it can only be used as wriiten as a react to an opponent action and not as an additional actoin when the player decides to use it later.
Practical example - I think an enemy will come around the corner of the building in front of me. I wait for him to round the corner. If he does I will attempt to shoot him. If he doesn't come around the corner, I will go and get him. I wasted the time waiting for the enemy to come around the corner and should not be rewarded with additional time to get up and move towards the enemy.
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I feel the whole wait discussion posted revolves around the may and must argument. May is much more powerful (and harder to clarify) than must. May means that the player has a choice as to when. If it does not clearly specify when then I feel it can be used when the player wants to use it. I also feel it states a player can come off of wait to react to an opponent action. It needs to be clarified when wait can be used. If it does not state the limits to the react of an oppponents action (timing) I would feel it can only be used as wriiten as a react to an opponent action and not as an additional actoin when the player decides to use it later.
I actually think the biggest word in the whole explaination is "reaction". WHos to say that the optimum time for me to "react" to you movement/action isnt just before I go again? Ive spent an action to wait for a possible optimum opening. After everything has moved would be an optimal time to "react" to the situation. The rule specifically states that the wait action has to be used BEFORE THE UNIT NEXT ACTIVATES. If it meant for the wait to go away at the end of the turn it would have said so.
Phil I think your point is valid if we assume that the squad that has the wait actions wins Initiative. If they dont then they CAN react to an opponents last action and still activate next whether or not it affected said unit. I dont think that wait depends on initiative. It depends on a units activation. If they havent gone yet they are atill ready to take advantage of a situation that presents itself.
Lucky Practical example - I think an enemy will come around the corner of the building in front of me. I wait for him to round the corner. If he does I will attempt to shoot him. If he doesn't come around the corner, I will go and get him. I wasted the time waiting for the enemy to come around the corner and should not be rewarded with additional time to get up and move towards the enemy.
If a unit is waiting on a given situation and another presents itself in a timely fashion, the unit will take it.
Referencing above quote... If the unit is waiting for someone to come around the wall and they dont and said unit is getting ready to move out and there is an enemy within sight that he can take a shot at, he will. He then proceeds to follow the given order. and you cant use wait to move but you can fire at whats called a " target of opportunity"
I have a question for you both. If the last unit in a turn goes on wait, are you saying that if that unit is last to activate in the next turn he lost his wait as soon as it became a new turn? I dont think so. I think he can activate last again and still take advantage of any situtations that arise before he goes again.
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Sorry I did not chime in earlier on this. I have been in this exact situation at GenCon and the question came up. Thom happened to be on hand and he answered it to my satisfaction. Here is what was ruled:
A model on way can use that wait at any time. There are no restrictions. So an entire unit (unactivated for the turn) on wait could use their wait actions and then activate afterward if it is the players turn to do so. It seems like they get 4 actions in a row but remember... in their previous activation they only used 2 actions. So there is no imbalance. The actions are simply delayed. I saw the logic in this and accepted it.
Confusion exists because of interpretation of the verbage, but it is quite clear in my mind that a wait can be used at any time in any situation. Coil and I were playing at Talamania and I used a wait to interrupt an aiming sniper. Then I activated that same unit after he was done. Perfectly legal in my book.
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For the record, then, that is one FAQ Team guy, the FAQ Team Coffee Boy, and Prime. Should we wait for Coil or someone else before we make this official?
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For the record, then, that is one FAQ Team guy, the FAQ Team Coffee Boy, and Prime. Should we wait for Coil or someone else before we make this official?
Add me.
While not a FAQ guru nor anyone official, I am rather knowledgible.... and very experienced at this here game. :)
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I will except it as so but I would like to point out 1 thing to Wedge. His exsample is an interrupt which was never in question. So then I could at the end of a turn have my entire army on wait and then if I choose on my next turn I could if every model had a target roll for my entire army to come off wait and then activate a squad?
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For the record, then, that is one FAQ Team guy, the FAQ Team Coffee Boy, and Prime. Should we wait for Coil or someone else before we make this official?
I am only quoting what I 'remember' Thom saying. I don't want to speak for him. But as it stands we could get an FAQ team consensus if those in a contrary position are not convinced. I see the stream of logic that you are coming from Phil and I don't discredit it based on my past experience. This topic could certainly use more deliberation, but I don't know if we'll here from Coil until his safely back in Stockholm. Other FAQ'ers? Any input?
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So then I could at the end of a turn have my entire army on wait and then if I choose on my next turn I could if every model had a target roll for my entire army to come off wait and then activate a squad?
yes, that is correct.
but just ~60-65% will work (exept ambush -> thats why the SK is quite good, despite cost, low RC, 5W)
A model on way can use that wait at any time. There are no restrictions.
edit: personally, i like it that way. wait is a risky thing already, and (exept HMG in PB or FT) not overly effective. why restrict it´s use?
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Waits can be used anytime.
I talked to Topkick last night about this, and then completely fergot to post about it.
-PFC joe
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I will openly admit that I did not read the entire thread but instead skimmed through it.
Waits can be used at anytime before the waiting unit is activated. Waits do not need to be reactionary.
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We all can agree that the UWZ book was ruhed and many mistakes were made, things were omitted do to size of book, and verbage was changed on accident on some things. And I think we can agree that the basics have generally stayed the same from 1st to 3rd edition. I still feel the meaning of Wait has not changed since 1st edition I feel the verbage is allowing for different interpations. Here's the definition from the 1st edition main rulebook page 58 where Wait was clearly spelled out so there couls be no missinterpation.
Wait: When a model is waiting, it is doing nothing except waiting and watching so that it can react to the foe. You can spend an action for a model to wait. If you do so, the model's turn ends. Place a waiting marker beside that model and continue with the rest of your turn.
Basically, a waiting model has 1 action in reserve, which it can use *out of normal turn sequence.* If an enemy model preforms any visible action within LOS, then the wating model can use its saved action.
If you are waiting, you can interrupt an enemys movement at any time. Once your waiting model has taken its action, remove the waiting marker. your opponent completes his turn as normal.
You do not have to take the action as soon as an enemy model moves into your LOS. You can wait until the entire unit comes closer. *Once the enemy squad or individual finishes its turn, though, you cannot act against it.*
I believe it was the same in second edition too, but My rules of war is not handy at this time when I find it I'll check. No where does it say you can use a wait during your turn, and clearly states its an reaction.
I understand its a different edition but only minor verbage changed. If the verbage was coorect the UWZ book reads as a reaction. Just a thought for when this is offically FAQ'ed
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You may or may not be forgetting, however, that there is a major difference between the wait of 1st edition compared to 2nd and 3rd.
Waits were automatic in 1st edition--no leadership roll required. Therefore, it had to be more strict. It had to be limited and precise.
Conversely, in 2nd and 3rd editions it was allowed to be more flexible because of the randomness of the LD test. IMO, that is the reason for the change in verbage--not because of a typo or omission.
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Hello.
I didn't comment on the rule for warzone because I simply am still learning the rules. But this also came up for Chronopia at the last Con that EE was at. Thom stated that wait actions in Chronopia are held actions that can be used at any time. If I have a unit of first born macemen on wait with an enemy unit close enough to attack, I can attempt to come off wait attack with my wait action with each member of the unit in attack range. Then activate the unit after wards with no restrictions. The risk of wait is if I fail my wait test I lose my reserved action.
wmeredith.
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I just read throught the 2nd edition on wait and it clearly states far better than the UWZ book that it can be used at any time. Sorry for any chaos I caused but I was a 1st edition right to 3rd even though I owned 2nd edition never played alot of 2nd edition. So where in 1st where it was clearly a reaction in second it clearly became a use at any time. So that is the way I will play it from now on. Thanks for all the imput. Phil ;D ;D ;D
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Antime, bud. ;)
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This is a quite common confusion especially for people who have been playing 1st edition. In 1st ed. you had to have a "visible action" to react to. Back then the question was "Is action type X visible or not?".
In UWZ and 2nd ed this was changed so that you can use it at any time you do not have to react to something.
Wait counters like Dave stated remain on the model until it activates. So if an entire squad is Waiting when the first model activates the rest keep their Waits and can use them normally until they activate and lose it.