Excelsior Entertainment Forums
Chronopia => Game Questions => Topic started by: Anomander_Rake on October 20, 2005, 05:15:13 AM
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Hello out there,
in the last days it had been said that all undeads (Risen, Cursed, Necromancer etc.) are immune to handheld missile weapons. So shooting at them won't do. But what happens when they are being hit by magical weapons like the haunted stones of the SoKs? The sling of course is a handheld missile weapon, but the stone? What do you guys think?
Thrown weapons regardless if it is a dart, a barbed spear or a two handed reaver axe thrown by a viridian lord will do their damage?
greets,
Anomander Rake
PS: can anybody tell me by the way what this karma-thing is all about? I still haven't found an answer to that... >:(
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I can't answer the thrown magical weapon question (though it would seem that magicaly imbued weapons would still do damage) but as to the Karma thing, it's just a peer evaluation tool where people can express their feelings abouta person in a non-threatening manner.
ie I answer lots of questions in a timely manner and as courteously as possible, so people show gratitude by applauding me
the same works conversely, if I were to have a poor, inflamatory manner then I would rack up negative karma as a sign of peoples dissatissfaction.
-PFC joe
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In the FAQ #35 & #36 it clears up what weapons will harm undead. Only the Impaler or a Ballista will harm them. Everything else, slings, axes, arrows, spears, will not. If the sling is imbued with something magical, giving it say, fire damage, then I think that damage would apply. Good question Anomander_Rake. Feel the applaud button. Cheers.
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.....but as to the Karma thing, it's just a peer evaluation tool where people can express their feelings abouta person in a non-threatening manner......
OK, but how can I do it? Perhaps AOL has problems with the site...I haven't found any sign or button to do so....
greetz,
Anomander Rake
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In the FAQ #35 & #36 it clears up what weapons will harm undead. Only the Impaler or a Ballista will harm them. Everything else, slings, axes, arrows, spears, will not. If the sling is imbued with something magical, giving it say, fire damage, then I think that damage would apply. ....
OK, here are the FAQs....
35) Undead need to have their clarification corrected. It should read: "Unlike Infernal beings Undead are creatures who have ceased living and are either reanimated by some spell or power or are beings who have embraced undeath through their devotion to its study. Undead are immune to psychological effects like panic, fear, etc. Undead beings are also immune to Hand-Held Missile fire (this includes arrows, crossbow bolts, slings, darts, etc.).
36) The term Immune to Missile Weapons that shows under many undead models should be adjusted to Hand-Held Missile Weapons. Larger missile weapons like the Impaler or a ballista will damage them by virtue of the weapons size and kinetic load.
When I read the rules correctly hand-held missile weapons are bows, crossbows, slings or blowpipes... Are thrown weapons equal to hand-held missile weapons? I don't know for sure, since english isn't my native language, there could be some mistakes in reading and understanding the rules. But I would assume that a Spear or Dart or Viridian Lord Reaver Axe should do damage to undeads when they are thrown in the same way as when used in close combat.
just my 2 cents,
Anomander Rake
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You're English is great. I think that the FAQ breaks it down to mean only the Impaler or a siege weapon missile will harm undead. The "arrows, crossbow bolts, slings, darts, etc." covers just about everything else, including thrown weapons. A thrown weapon does not deliver anything close to the damage of the Impaler. The Viridian axe might come close however. Technically you're right, there should be perhaps an even more detailed description for all of us, native and non native speakers alike.
I'm hoping some of the more experienced people on the forum chime in, but I'm pretty sure that's how the rule works. Undead are supposed to be scary, and watching missiles bounce off of them balances out with the fact that they are typically slow movers. I hope this helps. Cheers.
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underneath the Karma display should be two buttons (applaud) and (smite). Just click them to assign a point in either category.
Obviously, you can't do it on yourself.
-PFC joe
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35) Undead need to have their clarification corrected. It should read: "Unlike Infernal beings Undead are creatures who have ceased living and are either reanimated by some spell or power or are beings who have embraced undeath through their devotion to its study. Undead are immune to psychological effects like panic, fear, etc. Undead beings are also immune to Hand-Held Missile fire (this includes arrows, crossbow bolts, slings, darts, etc.).
36) The term Immune to Missile Weapons that shows under many undead models should be adjusted to Hand-Held Missile Weapons. Larger missile weapons like the Impaler or a ballista will damage them by virtue of the weapons size and kinetic load.
No where does it say anything about thrown weapons. That makes no sense that a thrown axe or a spear would not do damage, it is far different than a arrow. So saying that thrown weapons would not affect undead is like saying that you would not be able to hit them with that weapon in CC, just because the weapon is being thrown would not make a differnce.
I think E Primes input is needed here to resolve this. Because it does say darts but still a dart is far different than an axe.
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underneath the Karma display should be two buttons (applaud) and (smite). Just click them to assign a point in either category.
OK, I think now I know why I have problems with karma...there are no buttons... :(
I was thinking this thing over and over, but with my post # 10 the buttons appeared....so it seems to be some kind of security setting
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@ morfdoggs
Nice thinking, specialy the hurled Battleaxes of the viridians should hurt them just through the physical impact it has.
Anyone else here is thinking that Cursed are a now abit over the top? ;)
(only 3 inch moving, maximum punch packing, heavy armor wearing Undead Unit. Now immune to all missle harm till they impact in CC (best misslescreen ingame) where they outclass most troops in the mid 20-30 point range with their DAM output )
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.....Anyone else here is thinking that Cursed are a now abit over the top? ;)
(only 3 inch moving, maximum punch packing, heavy armor wearing Undead Unit. Now immune to all missle harm till they impact in CC (best misslescreen ingame) where they outclass most troops in the mid 20-30 point range with their DAM output )
One of our players in the group plays devout. the last time we played he used an only undead army with an unholy champion...dam, thats been a fight...and I came along with 40% of archers...that's been a massacre :(
He uses the Giant Skeleton summon spell and when I imagine he finds the stats for the BoneGolem...I don't want to think about that... ;)
With the new rule of immunity to handheld missile weapons the game will be a bit unbalancing, but I think it's nothing a two-handed reaver axe wielded by viridans or hearthguards won't fix... ;)
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It is not new that most Undead are immun to hand held missle Weapons. I Think the new rule that "all Undead are immun to Hand held missle Weapons" only applyes to a few Units, like the Cursed. It is not a very good idea to use 40% Archers against Devout players. You take a big risk by using large amounts of Missle Weapon Units against A Devout force.
And about the Viridian Lors....
I am one of the Persons that think that the Viridians are a bit too good for their Point cost. The abillity to Throw their Axe (damn, how many of these giant Axes they carry???) is a bit heavy. I think it is not a bad idea to limit the abillity to Throw a maximum of one or two Axes per Game, or only to throw them with a succesful charge, or somewhat else.
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I dont think the Viridians need a tone down, they cant throw their axes very far and their RC is a joke (8). They usualy are better up to charge, than just throw an axe and waste a CC attack.
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The Cursed have definitely become more of an asset. I'm hoping E Prime will chime in about the hand-held missile weapons. I agree in principle that a Viridian lord hurling his axe should deliver damage to a skeleton, but I'll live with whatever the rules come down on.
I had a chance to play with Thom (E Prime) at a demo and learned first hand how the Cursed are immune to the bolts from Vulture Crossbowmen-- but sadly, I didn't have any Tunnel Fighters on the board to see how he rules about thrown weapons.
You still should have some missile weapons against the Devout. They've got those damnable demon wings, and the Soul Flayer flyin' around, and you can definitely shoot those troops. Curious to see how it turns out. Cheers.
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Missle Weapons against devout CAN be very usefull, All the demons cost many points. But as i said, It is a big risk to use so many Archers against Devouts. When your opponent plays a Undead- only Force, your Archers are relatively quite usefull.
But about the Cursed, i think you´re rigt. I dont know where i have my Book, but i remember that they have good stats and a very good Damage.
And the Viridians... The St was Added to the Dam with Thrown Weapons, right? Ok, they did not hit very well,... but some damage 15 Weapons (i think i remember it was 15) at range... very bad. They have a ROF of 1/1, right?
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The range of that axes would be 6. I dont think throwing them at six and not attacking with their high cc scores breaks the game there ;)
Against devout i would always put some archers into the force to prevent the most likly fielded Soulflayer ::) from roaming to free through the air ;D. It dont needed to be 40% of the force tho.
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I was thinking like a Dwarf player. Whether you use Horned Ones Warshields (warhammer damage) or Vulture Crossbowmen (bastard sword damage) you've got decent close combat to double up your options. Other armies might be hard pressed if their archers lose the effectiveness of their ranged combat. I'm with ya Ruther that 40% is a high number if you know beforehand you're fightin' the Devout. 'Makes it tricky in a tournament setting when you field the same army against opponents you don't know beforehand. That's what makes this game so cool.
Cheers.
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Missle Weapons against devout CAN be very usefull, All the demons cost many points. But as i said, It is a big risk to use so many Archers against Devouts. When your opponent plays a Undead- only Force, your Archers are relatively quite usefull.
But about the Cursed, i think you´re rigt. I dont know where i have my Book, but i remember that they have good stats and a very good Damage.
My last game I felt the wrath of an undead force with the Champ, I played Firstborn and my archers did absoloutly nothing all game. That is a force to be wreckened with. The inability to use your missle weapon hurts exspecially when I could of taken some Black Sisters or Iron Guard instead.They could have taken out something at least instead of running off the field like my poor archers.
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Ok, time for my $.02
First, Viridian Lords are not broken. For 52 points per model get a two-wound man with a very solid CC and DAM output, a good armor, a sad RC and a just as sad LD.
The only good use of a Viridian Lord's throwing axe is to throw them the same action you charge. (Look in the throwing weapon rules.)
Second, why say the rane is 6? Aren't most thrown weapons 2+STR? This would increase their effective range to 8 if I'm right. If nothing else I would think it's 1+STR. Regardless, often the only good time to throw is when charging.
Third...the Two Handed Reaver Axe is not a Hand-held ranged weapon. IT'S A FRIGGIN' GREATAXE! We're not talking about a bow that you can hold in one hand and just requires the other to draw back the string, we're talking about big@$$ treemen lobbing axes in a way that would make Paul Bunyun proud! Even if throwing spears don't count against undead (which I think they should), at least the Two Handed Reaver Axe should.
Fourth...any arguement for Cursed Shot to be useful against undead is irrelevent. Barring the Shadow Tribe Unliving, only the Devout have undead troops. There isn't a single Cursed Shot that can be made from a Devout of any type, so if power can't be drawn from a fallen Devout then no power in a Cursed Shot should be capabe of affecting the Undead.
(Although with that said, I believe there should be Cursed Shot made from Mortal and Infernal Devouts.)
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I would say a Veridian thrown axe would damage undead. It would probably be an exception, along with the impaler.
Perhaps Thom can jump in here and let us know the official ruling?
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I'll ply Thom with some quality Scotch this evening and tell'em to chime in ASAP.
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AFAIK Viridian Lords have 8" range. You can also, according to rules, makevery evil trick: throw an axe durring a charge even if you are out of charge range. Let's say you start 6" from enemy - you can decide to charge him - according to rules you throw a weapon from the original distance and then move charging model. So you throw an axe from 6" and then move 3" to the enemy (according to rules if you are out of charge range you move maximum distance towards enemy). On second action you are 3" from enemy - so you again throw an axe and than charge (this time you also get into CC). So thanks to this trick you get 2 throws and 1 CC attack in a turn.
But going back to Undead - lets make it clear about Cursed - they are immune to missiles and still can run? (I think they should have Cannot run - like other Undead units - without it they are simply broken in point cost - they should cost about 44 or so - like Black Sisters etc.)
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Let's take this in stages:
1) The notation regarding handheld missile weapons should be fairly clear. Should a missile from these sources however confer other damage because it has been augmented in some way then this would apply. By this i mean to say that if an arrow was made into a flaming arrow for example (something from CM), then the fire damage could apply.
Magical enchantments would fall into this category so the cursed shots that the Sons of Kronos use would still work (once that is).
2) Thrown weapons at this point are not the same as hand-held missile weapons. They function as normal.
3) Thanks for the Scotch. :)
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I'm still feelin' that Jameson today.
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I am sure you are...though two days in a row is more the issue than one night's worth.